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David: if Limerence is involuntary.......

Open forum ... what's on your mind? Want to vent or lament about your Limerent/Love Object? This is the ideal place.
Charm
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David: if Limerence is involuntary.......

Post by Charm » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:51 pm

David - hoping you’ll chime in for this

I agree with you and others that limerence is truly involuntary
I did not look for this
I never planned it
There was no premeditation
My FOO has to do with it
And i truly feel it is the only addiction I have suffered in my life
Can I absolve myself of the guilt and shame if it is involuntary?
Im not try to pretend nothing happened
I had a PA brought on by an obsessive limerent experience with an LO who I connected with and projected daddy issues on.
No argument there
I read the shame book you recommended but he Bradshaw did not discuss limerence
So since I only speak to my T and you on this forum, can I go a little easy on myself with respect to guilt and shame ??
Married female 47
LO is older married male
Attempted NC -failed 2x
LE is now over - fingers crossed!

crushed1234
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Re: David: if Limerence is involuntary.......

Post by crushed1234 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:19 am

I’m not David but I’ll chime in :D

Unless you’re a sociopath (which you’re not), you don’t have ill intentions. We don’t wake up one morning thinking “today is the day I’m going to fall head over heals for someone else and betray my spouse”. It happens, and unfortunately some of us make some really poor decisions as a result.

I’m in the same boat as you trying to make amends with the tremendous shame that I feel. The way to do that is to accept what you’re capable of and forgive yourself. I still haven’t figured out how to fully forgive myself but I’ve managed to mainly re-write to script in my head from “what a horrible person I am”, to “I’m human, I messed up, it doesn’t define me, I’m worthy of forgives”

So yes, please go easy on yourself because beating yourself up might feel good in a backwards way (because you are now punishing yourself for the awful things you’ve done) but it doesn’t move you forward. It’s not how you heal and grow - being kind to yourself and learning the lessons, is.

Charm
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Re: David: if Limerence is involuntary.......

Post by Charm » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:33 pm

Thanks Crushed1234
I appreciated each word you wrote as I know you went through the same thing.
But you have an SO who sympathizes and empathizes with your pain
I have an SO whose judgement of a relationship is based on if they have ever cheated.
Its the benchmark - if you have cheated on your spouse you are without doubt immoral, and your actions are disgusting NO EXCUSES!
So you see to live with that knowing what I have done beings tremendous shame and guilt on me.
Nevertheless, hearing words like yours helps in taming the emotional beating I give myself -
So thank you ! :ymhug:
Married female 47
LO is older married male
Attempted NC -failed 2x
LE is now over - fingers crossed!

LostAgain
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Re: David: if Limerence is involuntary.......

Post by LostAgain » Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:45 pm

Charm,forgiving an affair is tricky but if a/you don't have children and b/your SO si not going to forgive you maybe you should bale .
Your self excoriating words are painful to read but if you are with someone who judges you harshly and can not forgive you will find it hard to move on.

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Re: David: if Limerence is involuntary.......

Post by Rebecca » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:53 pm

I haven’t been in your position, but I wrote on your other thread so....

I don’t agree that these things just happen, but I do believe the reasons are usually outside our awareness. So if one does what you are attempting to do - to learn about these reasons and then to understand and internalise change then it follows one ends up a more mature and emotionally whole person.

I’m the betrayed partner. I’ve done more work than my H. It’s taken along time to look at my actions in the dynamic (I mean several years of therapy) and to try to address them and it’s still ongoing. But I feel far stronger and better for it and I’m a more self aware and improved parent, friend, partner.

So if it were me , I’d put all that energy that’s eating you up into growing yourself up and then congratulate myself on my up levelling of myself in the World. It’s probably a bit early for you to make huge steps as it takes ages.

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Spinnaker
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Re: David: if Limerence is involuntary.......

Post by Spinnaker » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:11 pm

“So since I only speak to my T and you on this forum, can I go a little easy on myself with respect to guilt and shame ??”

Charm~ Can you elaborate on this thought? I’m not understanding your logic in that statement.

I also don’t understand most of Rebecca’s comments here, but I’ll focus on you since you are the one doing the asking and your LE and recovery seems to mirror mine in a bizarre way.

The Bradshaw book discusses how toxic shame (which often goes back generations) is inherent in all who’ve been exposed to the unaddressed dysfunction....Hiding/denying/covering up abuse, addiction, financial crisis etc.... will affect us to the core. Even going back to our preverbal days, EVERYTHING we learned was associated with interaction emotionally with our caregivers. Without a parent tuning in to our emotions, we simply don’t know who we are. Their unconscious toxic shame is therefore ingrained into our sense of self. We are dissolutioned, disjointed, scattered....which is why we feel incomplete. When you don’t have an authentic healthy sense of self, you don’t value yourself. I think this is why I look to those I admire in a waaaaay to idealistic set of eyes. I saw my LO’s as men with similar wounds who had overcome the pain we share from similar upbringings. So I looked to them as my hero’s and counselor’s to pull me out of my hidden shame.... in essence being that parent I never had. Practically envisioning them to carry me like a parent should have to a freedom of which only they could comprehend and relate.

Here’s a good excerpt from the book:

“This is the power of toxic shame. The pain and suffering of shame generate automatic and unconscious defenses. Freud called these defenses by various names: denial, idealization of parents, repression of emotions and dissociation from emotions. What is important to note is that we can’t know what we don’t know. Denial, idealization, repression and dissociation are unconscious survival mechanisms. Because they are unconscious, we lose touch with the shame, hurt and pain they cover up. We cannot heal what we cannot feel. So without recovery, our toxic shame gets carried for generations.“

Keep working on Charm... Pull yourself back to reality and throw shame out the window when your mind starts veering toward limerent thought. Stop associating guilt and negative energy to every screwed up thought. Do a 180 and believe in the good in you.

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David
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Re: David: if Limerence is involuntary.......

Post by David » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:19 pm

That's a tough question. I was listening to a youtube video with Sam Harris and Joe Rogan about if we have free will. Seems like brain scans show our brains make a decision before we are consciously aware of that decision. So perhaps the belief we have free will is an illusion?




Does that mean we are absolved of feeling guilt when we have donesomething outside of our moral code? Perhaps not. Maybe that's why we developed a guilt system - to keep us more socialized and complaint to maintain the stasis of the system we are living within.

I haven't read his book, although i did hear that Dr. Joe Beam of marriage helpers wrote a book on the topic of guilt after he grappled with similar feelings after his own extramarital affair. I understand it has a strong religious base as he is a religious man. Getting Past Guilt: Embracing God's Forgiveness

What I have learned over the past decade since my own LE, i can still get triggered and can still have occasional fantasy thinking, I do have the ability to control my behaviours. Beyond that, i have no great pearls of wisdom to offer.
"Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate." - C.G. Jung

For Professional Coaching / Therapy see http://loverelations.co.uk/limerence

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Charm
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Re: David: if Limerence is involuntary.......

Post by Charm » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:21 pm

Spinnaker wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:11 pm
“So since I only speak to my T and you on this forum, can I go a little easy on myself with respect to guilt and shame ??”

Charm~ Can you elaborate on this thought? I’m not understanding your logic in that statement.
Thanks Spinn as always for your insight!
What I meant was ever since my physical interaction with LO has stopped and NC/LC has been in place - SO and I have been in an awesome place BUT every time I share a laugh, a cuddle, intimacy,closeness with DH I feel an overwhelming sense guilt and shame that Im not worthy of that moment of joy with him because of what I have done
I know all the reasons why I did what I did and your note about how my core self/identity has been damaged is very accurate - In T’s words, my dad’s NPD damaged my sense of self and I latched on my LO trying to get the unconditional love from him (which will never happen hence the insidious catch 22) BUT intellectually understanding all this doesnt justify my actions and for that reason I am left with tremendous shame.
Put it this way - many many people who suffer mentally and physically at the hands if their parents dont end up doing what I did therefore (my messed up head tells me)
Im not worthy of SO’s love
Im weak
Im not loveable in a true way as SO has shown me because he sees only the innocent me, not the slutty, dirty, shameful person I see myself now - make sense?
Last edited by Charm on Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Married female 47
LO is older married male
Attempted NC -failed 2x
LE is now over - fingers crossed!

Charm
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Re: David: if Limerence is involuntary.......

Post by Charm » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:26 pm

David wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:19 pm

What I have learned over the past decade since my own LE, i can still get triggered and can still have occasional fantasy thinking, I do have the ability to control my behaviours. Beyond that, i have no great pearls of wisdom to offer.
Thank you David!
Being triggered is very different in my mind from actions - I personally find a lot of members on this forum who have LE bit havent acted upon the thoughts/fantasies are in a very different category to those of us who actually have had physical intimacy - its a different beast entirely!
Married female 47
LO is older married male
Attempted NC -failed 2x
LE is now over - fingers crossed!

Charm
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Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:10 pm
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Re: David: if Limerence is involuntary.......

Post by Charm » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:30 pm

Rebecca wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:53 pm
I haven’t been in your position, but I wrote on your other thread so....

I don’t agree that these things just happen,
Thx Rebecca - so do you believe there is premeditation in LE? Or a way to control
the limerence addiction prior to it turning physical ? Even if one never heard the term limerence? I suppose when a regular drinker turns into an alcoholic they dont recognize it at first and then it spirals into a proper addiction but at what point do you judge the alcoholic?
Married female 47
LO is older married male
Attempted NC -failed 2x
LE is now over - fingers crossed!

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