Long time forum problems

Open forum ... what's on your mind? Want to vent or lament about your Limerent/Love Object? This is the ideal place.
MrSpock
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Long time forum problems

Post by MrSpock »

There is a recent thread where a brand new member ended up discovering that this forum is not a safe place and you can, and as in this case, will, get hurt without anything nor anyone preventing it. That's just really sad. And in that thread, it was even considered that maybe this place should just shut down.
Maybe history is doomed to repeat itself because that is what already happened with other similar forums. Or at least forum (singular).

I've been wanting to get involved in this for days, and I was going to address the problem in great detail, breaking down the component of it. But as I watched the thread unfold, it appears to me that it might be fruitless. As it turns out, this problem isn't new. It has been the same since the day I joined almost 3 years ago. And it hasn't improved one bit. Nothing changed, and I'm not sure it will. Probably, the forum will just fall out of its own weight, as it usually happens.

But I read a bit more tonight and I decided to at the very least say a few things...

On the one hand, I totally agree that adversity, of any kind, is an opportunity to grow. I've been practicing martial arts for almost 10 years now, so I very familiar with putting yourself in a situation where you can, and usually will, get hurt, in exchange of learning to cope and handle difficult situations.
It is absolutely true that the impact of the actions of others on ourselves is directly related to our own response. It really is the case, and I know from personal experiences, that you can get really really hurt, even physically (and in a life changing manner), even purposely, yet grow out of the experience and even be thankful to the universe for the struggle.
There is a parable of a little girl "helping" a butterfly break out her X only to un intentionally end up preventing the butterfly from properly developing wings so she could fly. And this parable best illustrates how struggle can be a good thing. And how letting people struggle as opposed to giving them a helping hand can be for the worst.

But, on the other hand, adversity can be drowning. The saying goes "what doesn't KILL you makes you stronger". And the first part is not to be ignored.

The view of adversity as a growing opportunity makes sense ONLY from the perspective of the one struggling`, but it makes NO sense from the perspective of the one watching the struggle, except in very special situations like the case of the butterfly.

If I see someone hurting somebody else, it isn't right to think about how the one getting hurt is going to grow, or how he is being triggered, or how he should better response as an effective defense. All these are things for the one being hurt to consider, but my job is to help by doing whatever I can to make that stop.

For example, in the thread in question there is one post which is 100% an attack to the brand new member. And that just should not happen. And we shouldn't just watch it do.

If David can't, or won't, intervene. Or doesn't agree with the basic rule that something like that should not be allowed then OK. I moderate other groups (but debate groups, not support groups) and know that is probably imposible to be effective when this things happen. But then, we have to do something (and David kind of made that more visible but better explaining the rules of the forum in a recent update he made).

I think the problem with this forum is that for some, this is a DEBATE space. Unfortunately, for most others, it is not. People don't come in here to debate what they should or shouldn't do, they come here to find EMPATHY (I've said this before and before and before but to no avail).

You can be the wisest in the room... you can have the most enlightening thing to say, but, if someone gets hurt by you saying it, then it has a cost, and as always, cost can surpass the benefits. In many many cases here, that fundamental balance is not considered and what is probably intended to help ends up doing the exact opposite.

I believe the key to find the right cost/benefit ratio in this forum, since it is a support and not a debate forum, is empathy. And the posts I'm referring to. The ones we are all referring to, lack empathy and so it doesn't really matter if their "content" is right in itself.

OK it's too late. I intended to be much much more detailed to really make sense and have some hope of getting this necessary message across, but at least I said something.

L-F
Posts: 3072
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Re: Long time forum problems

Post by L-F »

Beautifully said Mr Spock. It's sad seeing all the negativity, name calling, vendettas, personalizing, defensiveness, etc.

I don't buy into the drama anymore. People will say what they want to say, which is life in general, here, there, everywhere. You only need to turn on the news.

Best we learn how to keep ourselves safe and free of drama. I've learned to read what I want, skip what I don't want to read, reply to what I want... not interested in the drama. I'm not here to rescue anyone, I'm here to share what worked for me.

Hope T is going well Mr Spock!

Life is so full of beautiful things to be grateful for, we really do need to stop and smell the flowers from time to time, and help each other along the way since we are all in this together.
Learn to forgive...Life is too short to live with hate.
"Everything is within your power, and your power is within you." Janice Trachtman

Sunflower
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:26 am
Great Britain

Re: Long time forum problems

Post by Sunflower »

Having been a longtime member of the forum and of the tribe, it’s become very clear to me. The posters who show true empathy are kind and gentle and can read between the lines and just know what tone to take. The tough love clan are clearly lacking empathy.

If you have grown up with a narcissistic parent and have become self aware (for me it was the limerence journey) it is like a lightbulb turning on. Can spot a narc a mile off now and it is triggering. Best thing to do as David says is ignore. However, that doesn’t help the new members who are just embarking on the journey. It maybe just be up to the empathetic members to jump in and protect them.

JupiterTaco
Posts: 4489
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Re: Long time forum problems

Post by JupiterTaco »

Sunflower wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:26 pm
Having been a longtime member of the forum and of the tribe, it’s become very clear to me. The posters who show true empathy are kind and gentle and can read between the lines and just know what tone to take. The tough love clan are clearly lacking empathy.

If you have grown up with a narcissistic parent and have become self aware (for me it was the limerence journey) it is like a lightbulb turning on. Can spot a narc a mile off now and it is triggering. Best thing to do as David says is ignore. However, that doesn’t help the new members who are just embarking on the journey. It maybe just be up to the empathetic members to jump in and protect them.
Agreed, and it's sad to me that right when people come here raw and miserable, that's the time they really need support and at times they're not always getting it.
"Byreeeeeeeen! Byreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen!"

peter.rabbit
Posts: 327
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Re: Long time forum problems

Post by peter.rabbit »

MrSpock wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:32 am
I think the problem with this forum is that for some, this is a DEBATE space. Unfortunately, for most others, it is not. People don't come in here to debate what they should or shouldn't do, they come here to find EMPATHY (I've said this before and before and before but to no avail).
This is a pretty TAME forum(in my opinion), especially considering the sensitive nature of the general subject matter. Yes, Empathy is what people come here for, not to be preached to or judged. Thankfully, the preaching and judging has subsided, but one does have to stand up to the offending party, otherwise they think they have carte blanche to "lord-it-over" you with their pseudo-authoritative presence.

Fortunately, that person has backed off, and she operates with a lower key approach these days.
Weak people revenge.
Strong people forgive.
Intelligent people ignore.
-Albert Einstein

L-F
Posts: 3072
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:55 am
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Re: Long time forum problems

Post by L-F »

I think the important lesson here is to reflect on our own behavior. Reflecting on mine I came across some wise words shared by BK Shivani. Its about emotional healing - self and others. It's a lesson on creating a new karmic account.

I'm posting a few vids, the first one can be started at 24:42 to capture the core of it.
As I've mentioned on another thread about those who bullied me, they also helped me to grow and I just want to say "Thank you for helping me to get out of my pattern of unforiveness, and bitterness"



17.15 If someone has a problem with me, take your time to heal yourself. My agenda in life is that not everyone should be happy with me, no. My agenda in life also is that I should not have to please everybody so that they should be happy with me. It's too complicated. It's too complicated to go that way.

I can either
1. Reflect energy
2. Absorb energy
3. Transform energy
I'm consciously shifting my energy from conflict to harmony, healing emotional wounds.

'Meditation prayer'
"I am a Pure Powerful Soul.
I am sorry for what I must have done in the past.
I forgive you for what you have done today.
Past karmic account is over, never ever to come again.
Love and respect is the only thing we now exchange."

I can also transform energy by posting non-threatening informative vids with the object of the lesson plan being... '101 on how to ignore a fool'. And yes, I'm a fool. I'm okay with that. I'm teaching people how to ignore one person starting with me... and then the lesson can be applied to many other people. You are welcome.



He doesn't laugh, he vibes. And that's something I admire.

"There are joyful people and miserable people. But there are not good people and bad people."

"If someone else can decide what can happen within you, isn't this the ultimate slavery?"

"Master, what is the secret to Happiness?" "Not to Argue with ldiots." "Master, I completely disagree that this is the secret." "Yes, you are right.."



Committed but Sexually Attracted to Someone Else? – Sadhguru



Now I understand a few of my Indian friends point of view on limerence. This explains it perfectly.

"Someone can stay committed to a loved one when they are sexually attracted to another by realizing first that being sexually attracted to another is normal and a way of life. However, this is not to confuse that it is ok to dwell upon as it will feed the desire that is desired. Conflict then will arise within that person, isn't love more powerful than anything? Yes and no, love can not take away your natural way of life, it can only help you to do what is right instead of doing what feels good. So, love has nothing to do with desire, love gives and desire takes. It's ok to do either, but not at the expense of the other or at the expense of anyone. So, realize what's right and wrong for oneself instead of making rationalizations. Be willing to experience how you feel, but follow what is right to what supports morality, value, and meaning, and let your guide be to do what is right instead of how it will make you feel; otherwise you will loose yourself to being whatever you want instead of being a way that makes you important."
Learn to forgive...Life is too short to live with hate.
"Everything is within your power, and your power is within you." Janice Trachtman

Cookie
Posts: 1106
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Re: Long time forum problems

Post by Cookie »

peter.rabbit wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:26 pm
Fortunately, that person has backed off, and she operates with a lower key approach these days.
Yes, replacing it with passive-aggressiveness and self-victimization. Basically switching from overt to covert. It’s fine though. David has encouraged use of the block mechanisms on the forum for a reason, and we can all decide what our threshold is for any of it.

Including this post! :)
Person

MrSpock
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Re: Long time forum problems

Post by MrSpock »

In my initial post, as I said, I left out all the glory details that I initially wanted to address.

I have another brief slot of free time now, so I'd like to put forward a sort of Participation Criteria and some Ground Rules for the forum.

First and foremost, we should all agree that no one coming here should get hurt based on the interaction with others.

On the one hand, I believe we do all agree with that, and no one here has the purpose of hurting others.
But on the other hand, that does happens, people are getting hurt, and I believe it can be avoided if we set up, and follow, a custom "netiquete".

Based on a careful observation of the ways we interact here, I have these ideas:

I think that one on the things that is mostly getting in the way of letting this be a safe environment is a misunderstanding of the idea that "the ego gets hurt". It is true that I choose how to respond to whatever, including an attack. And it is true that, for example, when "I get hurt", I might, and usually am, participating. And if I participate in getting hurt, I share the responsibility, and can do something about it.

However... that true fact that if "I offend you", then you are/might be "getting offended", separately from what I've done, does not mean that in that case, is not that I had offended you but that you got offended, so is your fault not mine.

If I shot you in the head, you don't die because you didn't dodge the bullet and is your fault, you die because I killed you and the fault is mine.
Counter-wise, if I tell you that "no, I can't turn off the sun for you", and you feel unappreciated and left out, is your fault for letting my actions trigger you, not mine for not doing what you asked me.

There are many posts in this forum that totally "do hurt", yet, the poster mistakenly interprets that it is the receiver that "gets hurt" instead, due to their own triggers. But since it totally can happen that someone "is offended" without me having "offended her", the matter is never resolved.

It is true that people can feel "mistakenly" offended or attacked, that does happen... but, If I cannot tell the difference between hurting someone as the result of my actions, and someone getting hurt regardless of my actions as the results of their response, then I'm making a mistake and all my otherwise good intentions are worth nothing. So, it is absolutely fundamental, if I mean to good, kind and caring, to learn how to tell the difference.

And I'll said this again, several post here clearly mistake one for the other.
So, I propose to have this first item in the Participation Criteria:

Minimize the chances of anyone getting hurt, even taking their own issues and triggers into account.

And the corresponding rule should then be:

Do not trigger the inadequate responses from the members (even if it is their job to handle the response).

That is, if, for example, someone is not ready to hear the truth, then don't tell them the truth. Period. This easily follow from having empathy. If I insist on telling you that your dress is ugly just because it really is ugly, and because you are better off knowing it, I'm not helping you at all.

The so called school of tough-love just does not apply here in the forum. The simple reason is that strategy only makes sense when it is applied in a context where there is the role of the teacher/master/parent and the role of the student/apprentice/children. But, without those roles, then is not tough-love, is destructive criticism.

Here's a clear example: if I write an essay and the teacher dots all the i's and crosses all the t's, then I'm grateful and she is doing me a favor. But that is because I willingly accepted the roles and, even if implicitly, asked her to do that.
But, if I show the essay to a friend and he does that, he's just an idiot. That is not his role and I didn't show the essay to have him correct it

Now... is this forum a place were there are these two roles?
To say that it isn't would be a mistaken simplification. People do come here for advise, and we do give it based on our experiences.
So, what is the problem?
Why can't I tell someone that is being used by the LO that she is being used by the LO?

The answer is that I CAN... IF SHE ASKS.

So, another rule that corresponds with the first item in the Participation Criteria is:

Do not give unsolicited advise.


If I think you are making a mistake, I won't tell you unless you ask for my opinion.


....

I'm sure there is more to be added to the Criteria and the Rules, but my free time is up.
I would really love to know if you agree at least with the rules, and if you would be committed to follow them.

Pandora
Posts: 402
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:29 pm
Canada

Re: Long time forum problems

Post by Pandora »

MrSpock wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:59 am

The so called school of tough-love just does not apply here in the forum. The simple reason is that strategy only makes sense when it is applied in a context where there is the role of the teacher/master/parent and the role of the student/apprentice/children. But, without those roles, then is not tough-love, is destructive criticism.

...

Now... is this forum a place were there are these two roles?
To say that it isn't would be a mistaken simplification. People do come here for advise, and we do give it based on our experiences.
So, what is the problem?
Why can't I tell someone that is being used by the LO that she is being used by the LO?

The answer is that I CAN... IF SHE ASKS.

So, another rule that corresponds with the first item in the Participation Criteria is:

Do not give unsolicited advise.


If I think you are making a mistake, I won't tell you unless you ask for my opinion.
Thank you for this reminder, and I know it is something I need to take to heart. I think it's very easy to get caught up in my ego and think 'I have a little self-discovery under my belt, and thus I am a teacher for those I perceive as being less self-knowledgeable than me.'

I guess where I'd struggle with this one is that I do think it can be appropriate to comment on the situation as presented (e.g.: 'Your LO doesn't seem to have a lot of respect for you if they're bragging to you about how they got laid after you disclosed to them.'). I think where I draw the line is if the OP doesn't respond well to my comments, I have to withdraw. Either 'I'm sorry, you're right I don't know the situation 100%' and then leaving the thread, or just not commenting anymore. In my POV, most of the damage is done when the commenter refuses to leave OP alone and feels they have to hammer in how correct they are. But I'm also terrible at communication, so I'm probably misunderstanding something along the way.

Anyway, I'm interested to see what other thoughts people come up with. Like I said, I'm horrible at communication, so this is a great thread for me to sit in on!
I'm not here to be a creep,
I'm just feeling complete.
Take me home.

peter.rabbit
Posts: 327
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:27 am
United States of America

Re: Long time forum problems

Post by peter.rabbit »

MrSpock wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:59 am
Do not give unsolicited advise.
This is Net Etiquette 101.

Note: On a forum, If someone is seriously talking about self-harm....please DO come forward and encourage that individual to get help, perhaps even posting up the local/ national suicide prevention hotline.

Code: Select all

1-800-273-8255
https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/ 
Weak people revenge.
Strong people forgive.
Intelligent people ignore.
-Albert Einstein

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