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Major life change, alcoholism and limerence

Find support here if your partner is in limerence, having an affair or love addicted.
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LisaTranscending
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Re: Major live change, alcoholism and limerence

Post by LisaTranscending » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:23 pm

MrSpock wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:27 pm
For as long as you do love him, don't give up on him, even if in practice that means temporarily giving him all the space in the world and watching and helping from a distance.
and the most healthy thing for both of you may be honoring that space. taking care of one's own self is not giving up on another person. true love isn't about giving up on people, but it's not about self sacrifice and destroying one's happiness at the alter of such a self sacrifice. it's true, you taking care of your mom is totally appropriate behavior in any relationship. if his inability to take care of himself is in such a state of need that you can't take care of your mother in a moment of desperation and he's so beside himself he needs to take on another women in that absence to soothe him.......when you get back or even if you never left....his inability to take care of himself will still be there.

you are not his mother. you are not abandoning him. a romantic relationship/partnership is one of mutual admiration, respect and care. friendship is friendship and weathers many storms too, and the more selfish a friend, the less connection is possible.

of course we can't always get it right and make mistakes, but his behavior is not one of mutuality. you have mothered him long enough. go let him be father to this other woman, until he gets tired of the responsibility once the sex wears off.

people have to carry their weight in romantic relationships and friendships. otherwise we are martyrs, surrogate mothers/fathers to those who have not taken the time to do the work of self-actualization.
Last edited by LisaTranscending on Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Forestcat1
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Re: Major live change, alcoholism and limerence

Post by Forestcat1 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:26 pm

THANKS very much to everyone, it's really helpful to me get all the opinions and really appreciate the length of replies and efforts to help me.

My DH is really complicated (relationship attachment issues due to problems with his parents and religious issues, low self-esteem, alcoholism, you name it), so any relationship with him is really complicated. I have to take it on the chin and say I knew he was like this when I married him (though I didn't know about the alcohol problems). I had a relationship with him for 10 years where we always kind of got in touch again wherever our lives took us but I avoided getting attached because I was worried about the very things that have happened happening!
That said, it doesn't mean I have to be a victim. Mr Spock is totally right that my DH needs a 'legion of helping hands', he is having a serious personal crisis and I know what the LO is doing for him, she's giving him confidence and flattery, which is the thing that he MOST needs at the moment. He is also getting much needed self-esteem from helping someone worse off than himself. It is very difficult for me as the DW to give that as I know his flaws, but with the LO he is able to project an image of himself that he likes, he said he liked the person he is with her. I represent reality, something he's running away from at the moment. In fact, he's running away not just from me, but from any friends connected with his previous job and also from the area it happened in, where our house is. Also, I am a coper, and I tend to get even stronger when the going gets tough, so I'm sure that is unhelpful to someone who feels inadequate anyway. I don't want to make excuses for him but these things do come into the mix.

His LO is also f***** up. She was abused by her father, was in two abusive marriages, is manipulative and very selfish as a result. She was the first one to make contact, and she did what I can only describe as 'grooming' on my DH. She sent him many supportive msgs and some against me, she also sent him a msg saying goodbye because she was going to kill herself and I can only think that was attention seeking - I'm told people don't send goodbye msgs when they're really going to do it. She wants attention, financial support I think (she can't work due to mental health anxiety issues) and love. She must be in heaven with all the obsessive attention she's getting from my DH, but it is a very dangerous place for her too. Her most recent DH was abusive and treated her like a doormat. I was very understanding of her at first but she threw it back in my face. As she was my DH's first proper girlfriend when they were very young, there is a romantic idealism going on and I think there's something of my DH trying to recover his lost youth and rejuvenate himself through rejuvenating her. She also happens to live in the same area he grew up and where his parents live. He's seeing a lot more of his parents too. I think he got to a stage where he couldn't cope at all and felt the only way was to throw everything away and start again (as Mr Spock says).

I had some marriage guidance from people who believe that limerence is a form of madness and the hormones involved can make people behave very badly towards people who they see as obstacles to their relationship, particularly their spouses. They said when the fog of limerence clears, things change and I shouldn't do anything hasty. This is going to sound weird but early on in their relationship my DH said he didn't even fancy his LO that much, he was just able to talk to her and that meant so much to him. When I said about the anger, I didn't mean my anger, I meant that my DH seems to be angry with me, even though it should be the other way round. That does show how f***** up limerence makes people, another sign was my DH turning down 2 jobs he'd have normally jumped at, because they were too far from the LO.

The difficulty for me is how long I should wait and how much I should accept. I really have to think of myself now and thanks for reminding me, I need to be told that many times! I have told my DH that I will be his friend and we can help each other but I'm not in a triangle waiting for him and that if I meet someone who will treat me properly I may not be able to see him due to loyalty, something he has taken away from me so doesn't deserve eternally from me. My plan is to work on myself and allow my DH to work through his problems, his LO can take the strain and I can have a rest. My DH seems to want to help me out and spend quality time with me so I'll let him do that, then at last I will feel that the tables have turned and he is helping me for once. That would be very healing and it might also help him to help me and he can learn to love properly. However, if that doesn't work out I'll know it's time to throw in the towel.

Thanks again for helping me to keep my head above water x

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Re: Major live change, alcoholism and limerence

Post by L-F » Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:33 pm

I wish you well on this journey. Keep us posted, and hope you are able to rest. Keep doing your own heavy lifting and in time things will work out how they are meant to - however that looks - things do happen for a reason.
If only we'd sit with the void too... then perhaps we won't need to fill it once we get over the fear of its existence. L-F

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Re: Major live change, alcoholism and limerence

Post by MrSpock » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:45 am

L-F wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:46 pm
What about his love for her? When does his actions factor in to it?
As I believe love is a way of doing, a way that leads to happiness, your question could be rephrased:

"What is she supposed to do in order to approach her own happiness"

Certainly, she has to see what does she need to be happy, and, clearly, in this very specific case, she needs to see her DH happy.

While I'm not specifically arguing that self-love, strictly in itself, requires as a general rule the happiness of others, I do argue that loving someone else does require their happiness (for that is what it means to (truly) love something [as opposed to want (to posses) someone instead]).
Since she loves him, she needs him to be happy.

Now...

If she needs him to be happy, which is a clear fact in this case, does that means she should, say, make their bed so he gets a good laid (with LO) in clean sheets? Of course not. Why?

Because she does need him to be happy, but in order for her to be happy. That is, his happiness is not her goal, her own happiness is. His happiness is just a means to it (among others).

At the end of the day, is a matter of simple math. Making them the bed for a good laid amounts to, say, 5 points for him, but it costs her 500, so she ends up -450 points down. If her goal were to make him happy, that would do it, but for her own happiness, the math sucks.

Notice that the fundamental difference between selfishness and self-love is that, while in both cases the single--or at least primary--goal, is our own happiness, in the former, the happiness of others is not weighted in, while in the later it is.

In my first post I tried to just lay down the key facts without giving to much of an advice regarding what to specifically do. This time I'll be more specific.

So, Forestcat1

By all means pursue your own happiness. The happiness of your DH can never be a goal in itself. That's not how we humans operate. We humans all need to focus in our own happiness first, which does not mean being selfish, if and while we do that by harmonically weighting in the happiness of those we choose to love (and the more the better).
BUT, in doing so, make sure to consider that right now, because of how much you love him, his own happiness is in the list of things you, yourself, need.

At this point, you have to cut him loose. He is acting selfishly, which means, he is not weighting you in. But, he is being like that out of despair and confusion due to the tragic combo of depression, mental illness, alcoholism and on top of all that limerence; so you have to hold on (because is what you need). I'm sure he does love you, which means he does need you to be happy (apart from wanting you which means needing [to posses] you). That's why I'm sure that if he does come out of hell, he will come back.

Granted, you are only human, and very precisely as you said, once the distance is set, no ones knows how your love for him will adapt. It might fade out... let him know that.

Notice that to love him (wanting him to be happy) and to want him (to be with you) are two interrelated but ultimately separate things. Wanting him is, at this point, the feeling that you are better off without. But that doesn't mean you have to stop loving him (even if, being human, once you start to stop wanting him, the love might fade out as well)

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Re: Major live change, alcoholism and limerence

Post by CrushedSO » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:54 pm

I would also set some boundaries as well if you haven’t already. As others have said he wants to have his cake and eat it too. You need to tell him that you will not tolerate his behaviour and that as long as he chooses to be in contact his LO, he can leave.

This needs to happen to make him choose but more importantly for you. You are in a ton of pain. It must be unbearable for you. Don’t be his doormat. Tell him he is no longer welcome in your home and you will not be friends if he chooses to remain in contact with his LO. If he gets upset that’s his problem, it’s more selfishness on his part. He will continue his addiction until it becomes too painful to continue. Make it painful for him. Why should you suffer while he gets to play with a mistress and have a wife on the side?

This isn’t to be vindictive, it’s for your benefit. It’s for you. His problems are his to deal with and if he’s that unconscious even if he came back to you today nothing would change unless you both decided to do your own heavy lifting.

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Re: Major live change, alcoholism and limerence

Post by Spinnaker » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:02 pm

Forestcat

I truly sympathize with your predicament and applaud you for handling it so well. :ymhug: Shows how secure you are which will come in handy as you tackle the road ahead.

It's great you know that your DH is not firing on all cylinders. LE puts us in La-la Land and your husband is as good as temporarily insane right now. Not sure how to burst the limerent bubble. :-?
IMO The logical thing to do is tend to yourself first and see if his drinking has caused you deep seeded anger which you have possibly buried ?? I'd try seeking answers for individual choices which came before LE was an issue and unexpectedly reared its ugly head.
Last edited by Spinnaker on Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“We are tied in a single garment of destiny. What affects one directly affects everyone indirectly”.
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LisaTranscending
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Re: Major live change, alcoholism and limerence

Post by LisaTranscending » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:20 pm

MrSpock wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:45 am
Since she loves him, she needs him to be happy.
MrSpock wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:45 am
By all means pursue your own happiness. The happiness of your DH can never be a goal in itself. That's not how we humans operate. We humans all need to focus in our own happiness first, which does not mean being selfish, if and while we do that by harmonically weighting in the happiness of those we choose to love (and the more the better).
BUT, in doing so, make sure to consider that right now, because of how much you love him, his own happiness is in the list of things you, yourself, need.

as long as we believe these concepts of happiness as a need for something to happen or someone to behave a certain way or life to comport with some future wish of ours surrounding life circumstances and another person's awakening (to how wonderful we are to be lover or friend to).....we are doomed to disappointment and unhappiness with any remnant of such wishing as a motivating factor for our pursuits in daily life.

we have zero control over anything outside of ourselves and our goals for love and compassion are irrespective of the awakening or delusion of any other living being. this false hoping as to another's mental capacity or state of mind in conjunction with our own, will always lead to disillusionment.
wanting someone to behave a certain way is not true love. loving a person for who they are with all the good and bad is true love. building a daily life and routine around this person is a completely different endeavor. the two are not "needed" at all for a person's contentment. it is not a need, but a very lucky happenstance that we find companions who bring us love and accept our love in return. she can't need for him to be happy, since he can't find the strength in his soul to see what happiness truly means. she can only hope for him to find his happiness, and not rest any of hers on his finding it or not finding it. (which ironically is the predicament she finds herself in, since none of us should rest our happiness on finding it or feeling it, since chasing after it always illudes us)


edit: if they are committed to one another's happiness (which he is not) then they could share together the chaos and wonderment of life. but her "need" for his happiness would be like saying she "needs" him to be sad, because one day he will be sad. she didn't need for him to be sad, but she could be there to share in his sadness. or he could be there to share in her fear, pain, sadness and wonderment too. because it's all going to come along...all of it. are we to share it with another person? that was the promise of limerence, that we found that person to finally share it all with. what is the truth of what we learned about that?
Last edited by LisaTranscending on Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

L-F
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Re: Major live change, alcoholism and limerence

Post by L-F » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:43 pm

MrSpock wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:45 am
If she needs him to be happy, which is a clear fact in this case,
Why does she need him to be happy? To make her happy? Happiness doesn't work that way. It's an inner job. She can be happy for him regardless of how he feels. Yes he made his bed alright and it isn't with her. Would that make you happy... to see your wife happy with another man and still want to be your best friend not long after getting with him? Think long and hard about that one... it takes time imo. One needs to heal before one can be 'happy'.

If it were my husband, I'd definitely be happy. Happy that he's gone.
Last edited by L-F on Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If only we'd sit with the void too... then perhaps we won't need to fill it once we get over the fear of its existence. L-F

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LisaTranscending
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Re: Major live change, alcoholism and limerence

Post by LisaTranscending » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:46 pm

Spinnaker wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:02 pm
Repair is coming slow in my case and it has taken both of us being dedicated and willing to accept our role in the demise of the partnership. Knowing what you are dealing with and why it happened is a key step toward healing and forgiveness.
that's a fighting chance I'd say! thanks for sharing your story it really made so much sense to me about my own marital demise.

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Re: Major live change, alcoholism and limerence

Post by Forestcat1 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:53 pm

Hi and thanks again. This is all really interesting and helpful to me, makes me think through ALL my motives.

Re. Lisa Transcending's post and happiness - I hope this doesn't sound arrogant but it's the truth. I am definitely not happy through my DH, if that were the case I'd be permanently miserable! I am generally quite a happy person because I have self-esteem, which I gained with getting through a lot in life and helping other people. My self esteem does come to a large extent from helping other people but I have to be careful who I help and know when to stop. It is very difficult at the moment to stand back from the situation with my DH because (not necessarily in this order)

1. It's really sudden and extreme
2. I've invested alot in our marriage and sacrificed alot for our relationship - I know I should probably discard this but I'll have to do that slowly
3. I have a strong connection with my DH - probably sounds weird given the circumstances, but we enjoy each others company, we enjoy doing a lot of the same things and whatever happens we always seem to drift back to each other. We saw a counsellor once who said he couldn't quite understand what it was, but he could see there was a strong bond between us
4. We were starting to succeed in the mutual respect, learning to love properly etc before the life event threw us right back to square one
5. I always have to give things a chance, I do think my DH can learn to love, particularly if he is sober
6. my DH is not in his right mind
7. as Mr Spock said in an earlier post - something dramatic had to happen or I would have lost my DH to suicide or alcohol anyway

All quite big things I have to work through, but I don't have resentment anymore because I have knowledge.

Re. Spinnaker's post
Thank you, a lot of those things ring true. To be honest, it is probably me who should have found someone to be limerent with, like you, as alcoholism is a nightmare to live with. My DH's issues denied me some really important things in life, you are so right about retreating into resentment - I tried not to, but inevitably you do feel to some extent you need a 'payback time'. That said, it was my choice to let those things happen, I could have walked away so I can't blame it entirely on my DH.

Re. the situation with my mother - I know my DH loves my mother, but as he's not too good at communicating emotions, I never really had the full picture.
My DH treated me badly (emotional abuse) due to alcohol/diabetes issues early on in our marriage, which was very damaging to me and a big betrayal, so I relied on my mother alot as she was a real friend. I'm sure my DH was jealous of this, even though he was encouraging it by his behaviour. He was not only jealous of my closeness with my mother, but also jealous of the fact that my mum is a great mum and his mum is not (his dysfunctional relationship with his mother also has a lot to do with his behaviour). He recently confirmed that he was envious that I had such a great mum.
So yes, he probably did (even unconsciously) see me looking after my mother this summer as a betrayal. Of course I saw it as a necessity and also as payback time. We weren't communicating well at the time so this would have been a bone of contention, I can see that now. It is also possible that I could have chosen my DH over my mother, let her die and my DH still have this affair! Who knows, I had to go with the immediate problem.

So there is a lot of bad water under the bridge, which we have never properly worked through, I think because my DH finds it too painful to communicate about things which relate to his early life traumas (which they do).
We were starting to work on these things, again a reason why I find it difficult to jump out straight away.

I think the beauty of the situation that my DH finds himself in with his LO is that

he can erase all that painful history (including the job history) - but of course that means he's not tackling it so the same problems will arise
he can go back to a time and place which was fun, carefree and flattering
his LO has no bad history with him and no resentments because of his behaviour so he can be who he wants to be and start a clean slate

Re. Dr Spock's advice - yes, this is very true
At this point, you have to cut him loose. He is acting selfishly, which means, he is not weighting you in. But, he is being like that out of despair and confusion due to the tragic combo of depression, mental illness, alcoholism and on top of all that limerence;

I spoke to a counsellor who had been in a limerent relationship himself and had been, in his words, very mean to his wife. He advised me that the cocktail of hormones going on in the limerence, mixed with the already existing emotional problems, will be making my DH completely selfish and illogical. This is all true, but I agree should not be allowed to be an excuse. I know some will disagree with this but he advised me to take each day as it comes, don't make plans, and be a positive influence on my DH. This isn't difficult to do as my DH responds big time to any olive branch from me.

I am cutting him loose and have told him so but there is a complication from him - he cannot let me go. He says he needs me around to make his current relationship work!!! How selfish mad is that! He was cross at the thought that I would let him flounder by disappearing. He wants to still see me and spend time with me. I asked him what he wants from me and he said friendship, companionship and to help me. Counsellor thinks I should give that a chance because it may be the making of our relationship.

I am thinking of myself when I say I'd like to give that a try. I've come too far to let it all go suddenly, that wouldn't help me or make me happy. I'm very confused as to whether my DH really loves me or not, he's in limerence so it's hard to tell but he keeps trying to help me and spend time with me, something I've never really had in our marriage - so maybe I should enjoy that, on my terms, as that would cancel out the pain and hurt which I would feel even more intensely if I just left the marriage abruptly. Maybe this is what Spinnaker is doing?

It's difficult to explain all this, even to myself, but I know that in the long run I am probably going to gain alot from all this, whatever happens, because essentially I am getting the strength to rely on myself. Is that inner happiness? I hope so cos it's hard work getting there!

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