Now to some replies not necessarily in order
Hate to disappoint you but I'm not generally a physically aggressive person. Verbally? Sure I speak my mind and I don't sugar coat things I just say things as I see them I'm not always right but I strive to make sure that the things I believe are those that are best supported with evidence.LostAgain wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:17 amSkex,gotta say for a guy who claims not to be angry you are giving a pretty good impression of it.
You seem like a person who would punch anyone's lights out if they disagreed...(awaits angry riposte)
If you read more threads you would find that many of those struggling with LE never act on their feelings.
As for your attack on AMA I reckon it is shitty and cowardly and ad hominem.Seems you are a bit sensitive yourself to the ad hominem.
We all get that you are angry.We sympathise for your pain.What is not acceptable is to try to assuage that by sticking the boot in to someone else.
Stop being a dick.
I do wonder at why people see my posting as angry, I don't feel angry when posting. Frustrated that I'm not getting my point through and at what looks to be an almost intentional obtuseness sure, but not angry. My goal is to always have the most accurate understanding of reality that I can given an understanding that I have imperfect tools of perception and cognition.
I think that you are failing to understand the definition of an ad hominem attack. An ad hom attack is an attack on the person rather than the idea. You and others who accuse me of being angry are attempting to discredit my argument on that basis rather than on the merits of my argument itself.
Whether I'm angry or not is irrelevant to whether or not my argument has merit and your response should not rely on my emotional state.
As far as people here having not acted on their crushes so much the better. The best place for intervention is before someone does something stupid and destructive. The problem that most people get into is that they find themselves well past the point of no return before they think about it and by then it's too late and they go 'oh well in for a penny and all of that'.
It's has been the hardest thing I've ever done and I'm a Marine. It causes PISD, before I went through this I used to chuckle at the idea of triggers, now I get it. I'm a very sexually open and liberal individual. I'm not by nature controlling or jealous, a huge part of why my wife was able to get away with as much as she did for as long as she did was because I trusted her. Because I was secure in our relationship I didn't give any thought to her having male chat buddies (other than one who I had specifically asked her to not stay in contact with.David wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:33 amSkex, thanks for sharing more. I have no idea what its like to discover a partner has been cheating. I get a sense from the work I do and that's hard enough. I am sorry you have endured this. I am sad we live in a culture where the causes and impact of affairs is not discussed more openly. Its only by getting this stuff out of our shadows and into the light that we have a chance to learn and grow.
We had a very open and adventurous sex life, up to and including swinging and opening up our relationship to other sexual adventures as long as certain rules and guidelines were agreed to and followed, guidelines that were to ensure safety rather than control and attempt to smooth out some of the potential pit falls.
I don't claim to be perfect, no one is. I have my flaws just like anyone else does. I burp I fart, I make, bad jokes and snore. I get fixated on video games or any project for that matter. But she knew all of that going into this relationship and I didn't suddenly start doing something different. She knew that I was always available and open to talking yet by her own admission she took advantage of my trust and did her own thing. There is more to the rationalizations and mental gymnastics she engaged in over the period but that's the gist.
I know it is. and part of the reason it is is because we have people say stupid shit like thisDavid wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:33 amWhilst I agree with this as an initial strategy, few people have the capacity to enforce this strategy because of their own relationship with conflict. And invariably their inability to dealing with honest communication that may be conflictual is what led the relationship to hit the buffers in the first place. It seems few people have the capacity to just drop their people pleasing co-dependence shackles and enact a 180. It takes a lot of work.
I would be interested to read how you managed to do this as boy, do others need to develop this ability to set and more importantly enforce boundaries.
Read this to start then move on to this In fact as a therapist I suggest that you read through the entire site for your own information and knowledge.David wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:33 am
For a relationship to work at the most intimate of levels, it requires both halves to do their own growing up. Until the betrayed takes 100% responsibility for their own behaviour that led up to the betrayal , the relationship is unlikely to get to a place of one built on honesty, trust, respect and agape love.
The key thing here is that yes the state of the relationship is a shared responsibility to which both parties contribute I don't buy into any sort of 50% split because nothing is ever that clean cut. Is the responsibility really 50/50 if one party builds up resentments, never communicates their dissatisfaction, rebuffs any attempts by the other party get to the bottom of their issues? No it's not and given that most people who end up cheating are conflict averse to begin with they don't tend to speak up for themselves and instead get surly resentful and start building up their list of grievances.
The problem with your argument is that having relationship problems still doesn't justify cheating. For one every relationship has problems. No matter how emotionally mature and mentally health you are, No matter how well you communicate and much you love the other person shit happens. People change. situations change. And sometimes people do grow apart and nothing says that relationships should last forever.
There are ethical, respectful and honest ways to deal with all of those situations, unless you live in some totalitarian theocracy where women are still regarded as property you can always leave the relationship. Sure it has challenges. So does getting up in the morning. Yeah if you leave your husband because you don't feel like he pays enough attention to you , you're going to lose the benefit of his paycheck. If you leave your wife because you don't think that she's giving you enough nookie and you have kids you're probably going to have to pay child support and in any case where children are involved there will be the necessity of having to split custody. That's just part of life. Everything has costs, everything has tradeoffs and no one get's to have it all.
And I applaud them for seeking an answer to it. But to be honest at some point the talking and moaning has to give way to reason and control. As for trying to find an answer. But let me ask you this. if you wanted to learn how to play a piano would you go find someone else who wants to play the piano and figure out the answer together or would you looks for someone who already knows how to play and can actually teach you?David wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:33 amAgree again with you here. And my sense is the people that stay on this forum realise that their limerence (which brought them here in the first place) is not the answer to their inner strife. They are here to learn and grow and are doing something about themselves.
This is the problem with an echo chamber. That's part of why I sought out a place like this. Because it's hard to learn anything if you only seek out information and voices that agree with you. If I can accomplish nothing else perhaps my argument and their perception of my pain and anger will give them pause in taking further steps down the slippery slope to choices that they will later regret.
There is also always the possibility that I'll learn something too that someone may make an argument so compelling that I go "huh" and change my views. I'm always open to changing my mind, a friend of mine once said that arguing with me was like having a sea battle firing cannons broadside at each other and when I start to lose he'd look to his and see me there calling fire onto my former craft.
I don't get attached to ideas because of emotional reasons, my core value in all things is honesty, most important of which has always been being honest with myself.
That said I've spent 47 years developing and refining my beliefs and seeking out hostile territory to test them so I don't change them much anymore.
Honestly, and it this kind of keys off how so many people here seem to perceive me as angry. I think that people who end up in these situations where they are cheating emotionally or physically are conflict averse to the extreme. They often lived lives where showing emotions was punished or mocked. So instead of processing their emotions by actually experiencing them they shove them down in their little box and pretend that as long as it's not on the top of their mind it's not in their subconscious slowly simmering and cooking until an explosive force builds up and it has to be released.David wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:33 amI can only answer for myself. I take 100% for my limerence and my actions at that time. And yes, I do attribute my chaotic attachments that led to my L to my FUFFO. I allow myself to get in touch with all the feelings my inner child holds towards my FOO as that way I do the necessary grief work that will minimize the chances of repetition. Learning to let go of the toxic shame that allows me to be vulnerable in my relationships.
If I had to say how I deal with these emotions it is that I don't fight them. I don't ignore them or push them down. I experience them I accept that being angry is an appropriate response to some circumstances. I don't punch people when they make me angry because that's not an effective or rational response if for no other reason that I don't want to suffer the consequences for doing so (like going to jail). It's the same reason that I don't cheat, because I don't want to suffer the consequences of hurting someone else.
If I'm mad I'm mad. if I'm sad I'm sad, if I'm happy, well. hopefully you get the picture here. I also have always engaged in a lot of introspection and questioning of myself and my own motivations and desires. I'm not perfect. There are times that I will find myself ignoring an emotion or letting another mask my true emotion. But I don't beat my self up about it I spend time thinking about it talking about it and working it out and figuring out how to deal better with it in the future.
I recognize that I'm a caveman with a cell phone and rather than fight it I embrace it and try to learn how to control it and influence it.
Don't equate relationship issues with cheating. The two are not related. Everyone has relationship issues, sometimes even irreconcilable issues, but not everyone cheats. There are always better, ethical and effective solutions available. Cheating is none of those things. Cheating is closer to trying to put out a kitchen fire by dropping a bomb on you house sure the kitchen fire get's put out but now you have a smoldering crater where your home used to be.
Good luck finding stats on any of this stuff. Thanks to attitudes like the the betrayed somehow being responsible for for getting fucked over most people don't even want to talk about it much less answer surveys about it. As best I can tell truly successful reconciliations (as opposed to divorce avoidance plans that typically result in multiple ddays and continued misery for both members of the couple) are rare as hell to begin with.
I've also noticed that betrayed almost always end up doing a massive amount of heavy lifting and introspection. We can't help it. Our entire reality is shifted out from under us as we realize that the lives we thought we were living with a friend, companion and ally was a lie, a fiction crafted specifically to keep us complacent, docile and under control. We pick through our memories we dissect every thought every experience we've had, we go back through those moments when our spider sense tingled when we thought that an answer to a question just didn't ring true but we dismissed as paranoia or our own insecurities because "they'd never do that to us" and then to realize that yes they did indeed do exactly that to us, typically gleefully and repeatedly and that despite all of their protestations to the contrary you know that they knew what they were doing was wrong and hurtful and decided that you just weren't worth enough to protect.
I guess part of it comes down to what you consider to be a successful reconciliation to be. Divorce avoidance? or a truly healthy happy relationship? Plus it's hard to know with therapists everywhere coddling cheaters and reinforcing this ridiculous "unmet needs" paradigm with this idea that the betrayed should be jumping through all kinds of hoops so that their partner won't punish them again for failing to meet some "need" because they aren't perfect little slaves.
They are victims and suffer even before discovery. Because as the wayward focuses their attention at their affair partner and start shifting their energies and time into their secret relationship they reduce their focus on their family, including their children. When my wife was in her cheating asshole mode she spent every spare moment on her phone chatting and flirting and what ever else and the moment I got home from work she'd check out and leave them to me because "she'd been with them for the whole 2 hours since they got off school" the bulk of which she spent on her phone chatting anyway.
That's one of her biggest regrets looking back on it now. All the time she lost with our children, time that you can't get back. And yes our children suffered from it. Not to mention that after discovery they got to suffer through having a broken father who could barely keep his shit together to go through the motions of going to work much less be a fun and happy father.
Just because it isn't obvious and even if it's not ever discovered and disclosed don't fool yourself into thinking that children aren't affected. If nothing else seeing the change in the relationship of their parents during it all will affect them long into adulthood.
This question demonstrates your ignorance and lack of empathy for those you don't identify with, Would you ask a rape victim to look at their contribution to their assault? Would you ask a battered wife to look at her contribution for why her husband beat the shit out of her? I my opinion the reason why so few relationships manage a healthy reconciliation is because the kind of person who cheats in the first place isn't the kind of person who is given to introspection and being in touch with their feelings, they aren't the kinds of people who are willing to stand up for themselves so instead they sneak around building up oppression narrative in their heads and nursing their resentments until they find some outlet where they feel like they can safely act out. They are in essence adult children who never learned how to think and behave like adults.David wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:33 amThe question for me is, are both betrayed and betrayer willing to look at their contribution? Sadly this seems rare where both halves are prepared to do the heavy lifting and I cant help but wonder if this is why so few relationships manage a healthy reconciliation.
I've seen hundreds of betrayed who bent over fucking backwards to be the perfect mate and you know what usually happens to them? More cheating. more ddays and more disrespect.
It behavior 101. You reward good behavior and discourage the bad.
What happens in the typical therapist lead "shared responsibility you failed to meet mah needs" model of treatment is that you are rewarding the cheaters behavior. Cheater goes and fucks around then when they are eventually caught, they swear up and down that they will never do it again, they convince their chump to go to couples counseling to figure out what went wrong. The poor cheated on chump who's world has just been turned upside down limps in with them and then we get a therapist who starts nodding sagely as the story is told saying how they understand that the poor little cheater was confused and just couldn't control themselves and thus just had to have crazy porn sex with their AP because their partner wasn't fulling some "need" they have after all. The counselor then looks at the chump and says "ok so cheater is responsible for their cheating but do you see how your actions pushed them to it" remember that the "but" in a sentence negates everything that comes before it. You might as well tell them that "they cheated because you didn't do what they wanted so do what they want in the future and they won't hurt you again".
So chump takes that lesson to heart and busts their butt to change to meet those needs and become the perfect mate for their cheater. Betrayed wives go buy new sexy underwear, they get waxed and work out and read books on how to give blow jobs. Betrayed men buy their wives flowers and arrange more date nites and spend more time taking care of chores or the children or whatever it is that their cheater told them they needed to behave like a decent human being. So from a behavioral standpoint what is the lesson that the cheater learns from this? I'll tell you. they learn that if they cheat and hurt their partner they'll be rewarded and get what they want.
What do you think would happen if you gave a puppy a treat every time they pooped on the living room floor? Do you think that puppy would start going outside to take care of their business? Or do you think that they'll keep pooping in the floor and maybe even expand to the bedroom, dinning room and kitchen.
Sure human beings aren't dog's but we are animals and we're driven by the same basic motivators. Move towards good things move away from bad. You don't give someone money when they rob a bank even though they obviously felt that they needed the money since they robbed a bank. You don't reward shitty behavior in people.
Now this doesn't mean that a betrayed should be oblivious to legitimate gripes that a cheater may have. It just means that you don't tie addressing those gripes to the cheating. And it sure as fuck doesn't come before the cheater doing some hard work on sorting their own shit out first.
Also let's talk for a minute about "needs", your needs are air, water, food, shelter, sleep and a case can probably be made for human social interaction. Everything else is a want. And it's important to understand the difference a need is something that you require to survive and maintain some semblance of sanity. Everything is else is a nice to have but you can live without it.
I may want a Ferrari but that doesn't give me the right to steal one from someone. and let's be honest anyone deserves to be robbed it's someone who owns a Ferrari. I may want to have sex with Scarlett Johansson (I mean who wouldn't) that doesn't give me the right to rape her. Now a homeless person shop lifting in a grocery store for food, that's a legitimate moral quandary, going out and starting a relationship with someone new while you are still in a relationship with someone else is not.
Yet your argument seems to suggest that in the case of infidelity (which isn't really about sex it's about betrayal of trust) we should reward bad behavior. Why the exception? It's emotional abuse. Would you tell a woman who's husband is constantly calling her a fat cow that maybe she should go on a diet and lose some weight so he'd stop? So why the hell would you tell a person whose partner hurt them in one of the most profoundly damaging ways legally possible that they should do the same?