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My feelings after my wife cheated on me

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Skex
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Feelings Towards DH

Post by Skex » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:26 pm

JohnDeux wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:53 pm

Fair enough for the first half of the sentence, much evidence to dispute the second half. Best to you and your DW....sounds like things are on the "right" track.
It’s irrelevant because even if I were interested in discussing my personal situation on this site (I'm not) this is Ama210's thread and I am not interested in derailing it and making it the Skex thread.

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David
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Re: Feelings Towards DH

Post by David » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:28 pm

Skex wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:35 pm
This is why I laugh at the idea of people who coddle cheaters saying that I lack empathy.
Skex, do you feel I am condoning affairs by saying your first post lacked empathy? I dont think I've ever condoned people having PA's. That doesnt mean I cant feel empathy for all 3 people involved in the triangulation that Lisa refers to - the victim, the rescuer and persecutor.

Whilst I agree with what you write, the world and the humans within in it are far from perfect. My experience is humans are complex and messy and our culture encourages blue pill consumption. Most folk here are making an effort to grow themselves up and take more responsibility. Many are taking the red pill. The red pill is slow release. It takes time.

I wish we lived in a culture where the illusion of romantic love was shattered. How do we undo 1,000 years of social conditioning? The media and Hollywood are way too powerful to let that happen anytime soon. One person at time is how we change things. And that is happening here little by little.

Anyhow, good to have some disruption to wake us up.
"Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate." - C.G. Jung

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Skex
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Re: Feelings Towards DH

Post by Skex » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:55 am

David wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:28 pm

Skex, do you feel I am condoning affairs by saying your first post lacked empathy? I dont think I've ever condoned people having PA's. That doesnt mean I cant feel empathy for all 3 people involved in the triangulation that Lisa refers to - the victim, the rescuer and persecutor.

Whilst I agree with what you write, the world and the humans within in it are far from perfect. My experience is humans are complex and messy and our culture encourages blue pill consumption. Most folk here are making an effort to grow themselves up and take more responsibility. Many are taking the red pill. The red pill is slow release. It takes time.

I wish we lived in a culture where the illusion of romantic love was shattered. How do we undo 1,000 years of social conditioning? The media and Hollywood are way too powerful to let that happen anytime soon. One person at time is how we change things. And that is happening here little by little.

Anyhow, good to have some disruption to wake us up.
For one I said coddling which isn't exactly the same as condoning.

I do think that suggesting that the betrayed is in anyway responsible for or contributed to cheating is at least condoning adjacent. It's allowing them to deflect responsibility onto someone else and in this case the someone else who bears zero responsibility,and who most often is the last to know. How can someone bear responsibility for actions someone else takes of which they have zero awareness?

I get that I'm not the slow release touchy feely guy on this, But to be honest the red pill in the source material for your analogy was instant not slow release. That of course only shows that your analogy is flawed. Wouldn't be the first case of it being miss applied (See MRA movement who somehow miss the irony of their patriarchal support group to an idea created by two trans women) .

I'm more shock and awe and frankly from everything that I've seen that's really the most effective way of breaking through the wayward mindset. Real immediate consequences that can be tied directly to actions in a way that makes the cause and effect clear and undeniable.

That said I get that there are different approaches and that it takes time for people to change their thinking (even when they are willing). My issue with the slow burn approach is that it ignores the harm being caused to the innocent victims of these people in order to not upset them.

I said that I wasn't going to get into my tail on this thread but I guess I'll go back on that a tad. By the I found the evidence that proved my own wife's betrayal I'd had countless gentler discussions about cheating, the damage it caused and how shitty such behavior it was. She was actively in therapy the entire time leading up to and during her adventures yet even a couple of close calls where she managed to gaslight me into blaming my own insecurities and relationship history she kept right on cheating. It wasn't until I looked her in the eye and said either come clean and fix your shit or I'm divorcing you that she started to pull her head out of her ass. When the negative consequences for her choices became real and present in her life, that was when she started to figure it out and get her head on right. not that it was an instant process even then but it was the motivation that fueled her continued efforts to fix her shit. Not to undo the damages she caused, there is no way for that to ever happen she can't go back and undo what she had done. She couldn't make it right. What she could do was fix her shit and become a decent grown up human being who she can be proud of being.

After DDAY I set out on something of a personal quest to try and understand what leads people down these paths because I wanted to find a way through. Not to a rug sweeping relationship of misery and staying for the kids but to a loving lasting relationship built on mutual respect and caring. To do that I needed to see what worked and what didn't, so I scoured every source I could find about infidelity and cheating. I quickly determined a few things, one the majority of professional relationship counseling operates on a flawed model for reconciliation. One that pushes the idea of shared responsibility and nonsense of unmet needs. Predictably those programs have sad results, divorce avoidance plans rather than real reconciliation.

Again and again I found a common thread in successful reconciliations (Which are vanishingly rare) and that is a cheater who digs deep into their own psyche works hard on figuring out their own thinking and changing it out of a desire to be a better person. Not in order to save their current relationship but so that they are more mature functional adults going forward.

What I personally see so much with cheaters is a lack of personal accountability and responsibility. It's always someone else's fault, Their faithful partner, their parents. their FOO, they are always "pushed" into it. at least that's how they think about it by external factors. What they seldom accept is that it's all on them. their choice their decision, their short sightedness.

I had to accept that I had no real control over whether or not I had a successful reconciliation and thus a good marriage in my future. It all depended on what my wife did, whether or not she was the kind of person capable of change and motivated enough to push through the painful FOO based shit that tends to underlie that level of dysfunction.

I keyed in on Ama's thread here because I recognized what she was doing from the hundreds of stories I've read from cheaters who were either reformed or working on reforming their thinking. It was this lack of agency, this unwillingness to admit that she only had herself to blame for the situation she was in. No one held a gun to her head. Her husband didn't force her into the arms of another. It was her job to remain honest and faithful, to reward his trust with being trustworthy.

All of this is just rationalization, her mental self defense mechanism that is trying to protect her broken core, her inner child who learned a certain way of coping that while effective in her childhood is detrimental to her happiness as an adult. I saw the same thing with my own wife's struggle as she started to peel back the layers of her psyche to examine how her home life lead her to certain coping mechanisms that ultimately resulted in her bad choices.

Ama is obviously suffering from similar flawed thinking. And I don't say that to be mean, it's simply an objective observation. She can't see it because she's too close. From what I can tell the majority of the posters here have trouble seeing it because they are just as locked into their own dysfunctional thinking as she is so they reinforce and support her flawed thought processes which serves to keep her in dysfunction rather aid her in escaping it.

Cheating at it's core always comes down to selfishness, entitlement, power with a a healthy dose of "fuck you you aren't the boss of me" directed to their victim. And I say victim intentionally. Yeah I've heard of the victim triangle and while I think that it has merit in many cases when it comes to infidelity the betrayed partner and children are innocent victims. While the cheater and affair partner are co-conspirators. Now we are all selfish at times, we all feel entitled now and again, we all want power and yeah we have the urge to go "fuck you, you aren't the boss of me" most of us, most of the time don't act on those urges in ways that fuck over other people because we have empathy and thus feel discomfort at the idea of causing other pain. Even most cheaters feel the same. This is why they engage in Olympic levels of mental gymnastics to rationalize themselves to a justification.

I'm a secular humanist so my default position is that most people start out pretty decently and it's only through mental disorder or external factors that they behave badly. Despite my overt condemnation of cheating (and yeah emotional affairs are cheating) I don't hate or think that cheaters are inherently bad people. I think that for the most part with the exception of actual sociopaths they are decent people who've rationalized themselves to a position where they can justify bad behaviors.

Even though am blunt in my addressing of Ama's situation, I don't think that she's a bad person, or unworthy of help. The problem is that it's very hard to reason out of a position that you thought yourself into. I"m not replying to her thread out of anger or projection. I'm hoping that I can help shock her out of her delusional thinking by giving her a different view of her actions and calling her on her bullshit. Not because I dislike her but because the bullshit is going to poison her and eventually poison her husband and children if she doesn't get her head on straight.

Ama may no be an active physical cheater (I'm still waiting for her to answer my query regarding when she had her ONS) but she's firmly on that path. Unless she puts some serious time and effort into fixing her shit it's only a matter of time and opportunity. Because she's already stepped onto that path not simply willingly but gleefully and is apparently eager to get on it again.

My advice to her is to put all the time and energy that she is currently putting into pining for other men, into her relationship with her husband. Either that or do everyone involved and get a divorce so she can go crush on SINGLE men. Stop being so defensive and judgmental. Oh and stop projecting her relationship issues with her mother onto her husband. Asking about dinner is not controlling. She has no fucking clue what is controlling if she thinks her docile accommodating husband is controlling. Controlling would have laid down the law on this emotional infidelity shit her husband from everything she's said is the exact opposite of controlling. Stop obsessing about her husband's flaws and faults and focus on identifying, addressing and fixing hers.

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Re: Feelings Towards DH

Post by LisaTranscending » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:07 am

well skex, I still find your analogy of spousal betrayal to rape disturbing and appalling (in spite of your claim that rape victims think spousal cheating is somehow worse) . millions of people struggle with infidelity and the pain that comes with it. I hope and pray that the incidence of rape never comes close to that number. in the law there's no consequence for infidelity, while the consequences for rape are severe. (logic and decency dictate those laws) your callousness in comparing the two is beyond bad taste in winning your argument, it's repulsive to any person whose ever been raped.

I don't think i did ad hominem you, in that I pointed out that you are still obviously pretty angry in your attack on AMA21 for sharing her story. you seem to think that's not important when sharing here with other members and you feel somehow vindicated and unapologetic about your anger. it's not a healthy way to communicate here on the forum, since here's a news flash, you aren't the only person suffering in here and whose emotionally vulnerable.

every single member in here suffers. some have been suffering for decades. we aren't snowflakes, we are brave and strong individuals who share our inner most thoughts, hurts and feelings amongst each other in an attempt to understand ourselves better. we encourage growth and taking responsibility for our actions and delving into our consciousness in a loving environment without hostility and righteous indignation. we aren't here to condemn or point fingers, but try to shed some light on our predicaments.

You have no idea about the stories shared in here. all you can think about is your personal pain and are clueless about the broken paths of others. I invite you to look on the forum here as the humanitarian you claim to be. All you can see is your perspective. You are so blinded and blind-sided (and rightlyfully so) by what happened to you personally, that you project onto everyone here the status of "cheater." Most people in here never even consummated. They have nothing to do with your personal story. I'm afraid you are in unfamiliar territory as regards limerence. Limerence is a completely different phenomena than marital affairs or physical dalliances. your arrogance is unfitting to what ails us here. if you are curious about limerence, perhaps you should really read the stories of all these phenomenal posters, instead of schooling us about how you see everything.

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LisaTranscending
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Re: Feelings Towards DH

Post by LisaTranscending » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:12 am

just.... I want to apologize to every member in here for all those times I went too far perhaps in my furthering my values sometimes onto others in an oppressive manner. Dear members...please forgive me.

and that would include you skex, forgive my forthright indignation that I'm accusing you of in the very same breath.

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Re: Feelings Towards DH

Post by AMA210 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:54 am

@Skex......you have successfully hijacked this thread!! You don't know me and I don't have to explain anything to you about my behavior or my relationships. I don't know why you chose me to "wake up", but you could have at least started your own damn thread.
LE was 22 months...LO catalyst for awakening, in which I chose divorce (after 27 years of marriage)
Very happy and content with my new beginning

Skex
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Re: Feelings Towards DH

Post by Skex » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:46 am

I do apologize for the thread jack.

Why did I pick your thread? Because I saw you as someone who needs that wake up call. Because no one else in was pointing out the absurdity of your expecting your husband to be kissing your ass after what you put him through and frankly are still putting him through and that is something that you need to hear. I get that you don't want to hear it but that is why you need to hear it.

I will reiterate my main advice stop focusing your attention outside your marriage. Invest your time and energy into your marriage otherwise go ahead and get a divorce.

I suspect that if you focus your attention on your husband and actually communicate you would find that your feelings for him would fix themselves.

Also people can't read minds. And it is unfair for you to expect him to just know what you want. So here is a novel idea for you, tell him, try asking him what he wants too. Relationships take work and investment from both partners.

You also need to figure out that other people can't make you happy. They can enhance your happiness but you have to find that happiness from within not without.

Or keep doing what you've been doing and stay miserable I've said my peace and you can do with it what you will.

LisaT reading some of your posts I can see why you would be offended by my argument that cheating is never the fault of the betrayed but is always entirely the responsibility of the cheater.

However I do not know the specifics of your situation. If you were in a bad relationship that didn't work for you then their is no shame in leaving it. That is the ethical choice and I would never fault someone for doing so. I do wonder if you are projecting your own feelings onto Ama210 and that is why you are reading my argument as an attack.

But just because your ex was a shitty husband does not mean that Ama210's is. From what she has posted he's been exceptionally supportive considering what she has put him through.

I don't identify with him and I'm not projecting my situation on him. My situation with my wife is significantly different. She was not emotionally involved with her fuck buddies. They were just that, fuck buddies. Yes she went through some similar history rewriting when she was cheating but she never once considered leaving me nor did she try to blame me for her selfish choices. I have no reason to doubt her love of me.

If anything I pitty someone like Ama210's husband more because his wife is pining for another man and blaming him rather than taking ownership of her own choices.

It's obvious that he cares for her, because if he didn't he'd have divorced her by now. Meanwhile she is stringing him along completely oblivious to the effect her infatuation has on him. Frankly I find that to be cruel and heartless. Which yeah, makes it kind of hard to be sympathetic.

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David
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Re: Feelings Towards DH

Post by David » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:33 am

Skex, thanks for sharing more. I have no idea what its like to discover a partner has been cheating. I get a sense from the work I do and that's hard enough. I am sorry you have endured this. I am sad we live in a culture where the causes and impact of affairs is not discussed more openly. Its only by getting this stuff out of our shadows and into the light that we have a chance to learn and grow.
Skex wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:55 am
It wasn't until I looked her in the eye and said either come clean and fix your shit or I'm divorcing you that she started to pull her head out of her ass. When the negative consequences for her choices became real and present in her life, that was when she started to figure it out and get her head on right.
Whilst I agree with this as an initial strategy, few people have the capacity to enforce this strategy because of their own relationship with conflict. And invariably their inability to dealing with honest communication that may be conflictual is what led the relationship to hit the buffers in the first place. It seems few people have the capacity to just drop their people pleasing co-dependence shackles and enact a 180. It takes a lot of work.

I would be interested to read how you managed to do this as boy, do others need to develop this ability to set and more importantly enforce boundaries.
After DDAY I set out on something of a personal quest to try and understand what leads people down these paths because I wanted to find a way through. Not to a rug sweeping relationship of misery and staying for the kids but to a loving lasting relationship built on mutual respect and caring. To do that I needed to see what worked and what didn't, so I scoured every source I could find about infidelity and cheating. I quickly determined a few things, one the majority of professional relationship counseling operates on a flawed model for reconciliation. One that pushes the idea of shared responsibility and nonsense of unmet needs. Predictably those programs have sad results, divorce avoidance plans rather than real reconciliation.
For a relationship to work at the most intimate of levels, it requires both halves to do their own growing up. Until the betrayed takes 100% responsibility for their own behaviour that led up to the betrayal , the relationship is unlikely to get to a place of one built on honesty, trust, respect and agape love.
Again and again I found a common thread in successful reconciliations (Which are vanishingly rare) and that is a cheater who digs deep into their own psyche works hard on figuring out their own thinking and changing it out of a desire to be a better person. Not in order to save their current relationship but so that they are more mature functional adults going forward.
Agree again with you here. And my sense is the people that stay on this forum realise that their limerence (which brought them here in the first place) is not the answer to their inner strife. They are here to learn and grow and are doing something about themselves.
What I personally see so much with cheaters is a lack of personal accountability and responsibility. It's always someone else's fault, Their faithful partner, their parents. their FOO, they are always "pushed" into it. at least that's how they think about it by external factors. What they seldom accept is that it's all on them. their choice their decision, their short sightedness.
I can only answer for myself. I take 100% for my limerence and my actions at that time. And yes, I do attribute my chaotic attachments that led to my L to my FUFFO. I allow myself to get in touch with all the feelings my inner child holds towards my FOO as that way I do the necessary grief work that will minimize the chances of repetition. Learning to let go of the toxic shame that allows me to be vulnerable in my relationships.
I had to accept that I had no real control over whether or not I had a successful reconciliation and thus a good marriage in my future. It all depended on what my wife did, whether or not she was the kind of person capable of change and motivated enough to push through the painful FOO based shit that tends to underlie that level of dysfunction.
I dont agree with you on this one. Ive yet to meet a couple where one person is 100% to blame for the dysfunction and other 0% responsbile. After all, what attracted you (unconsciously) to a woman that behaved this way?

I would like to see the stats for longevity where the betrayed has done a 180, the marriage reconciles and the betrayed does no heavy lifting of their own.

Cheating at it's core always comes down to selfishness, entitlement, power with a a healthy dose of "fuck you you aren't the boss of me" directed to their victim. And I say victim intentionally. Yeah I've heard of the victim triangle and while I think that it has merit in many cases when it comes to infidelity the betrayed partner and children are innocent victims.
I agree the children are innocent parties. I dont agree the betrayed is innocent in what led up to to the affair. Unconscious likely, innocent no. After the discovery, then yes the betrayed becomes the innocent victim to the betrayal.

The question for me is, are both betrayed and betrayer willing to look at their contribution? Sadly this seems rare where both halves are prepared to do the heavy lifting and I cant help but wonder if this is why so few relationships manage a healthy reconciliation.
"Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate." - C.G. Jung

For Relationship Coaching help see www.loverelations.co.uk
For Individual Coaching and Mentoring see www.drdavidperl.com

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Re: My feelings after my wife cheated on me

Post by LostAgain » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:17 am

Skex,gotta say for a guy who claims not to be angry you are giving a pretty good impression of it.
You seem like a person who would punch anyone's lights out if they disagreed...(awaits angry riposte)
If you read more threads you would find that many of those struggling with LE never act on their feelings.
As for your attack on AMA I reckon it is shitty and cowardly and ad hominem.Seems you are a bit sensitive yourself to the ad hominem.
We all get that you are angry.We sympathise for your pain.What is not acceptable is to try to assuage that by sticking the boot in to someone else.
Stop being a dick.

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Re: My feelings after my wife cheated on me

Post by AMA210 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:48 pm

Skex,
I appreciate the apology for the thread hijack. Not a big deal, as that does happen here from time to time.
There is some truth in your words and I actually am grateful because at this point in my LE, I needed to hear them. From your opinions, I have a greater understanding of my responsibility in this and how I could have responded differently to LO in the very beginning of our developing friendship.
In response to your question about the OP I was involved with from 30 years ago, I was not married at the time, being only 20. We dated for a few months and I was his rebound and he was my first love.
LE was 22 months...LO catalyst for awakening, in which I chose divorce (after 27 years of marriage)
Very happy and content with my new beginning

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