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Happy about choosing a new (and male) therapist

Talk therapy can help but at times less cognitive treatments are required. Anything related to ANY form of therapy goes here.
Ivanhoe
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Re: Happy about choosing a new (and male) therapist

Post by Ivanhoe » Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:36 pm

Interesting points about nursing and gynocentric therapy. NG was a very high up in the totem pole nurse with good perspective about how things work. She thought nursing had built a somewhat High-schoolish structure and culture in which women with narcissistic tendencies seemed to thrive - and ruse to the top.
65 (feel 50); Male

"Grief makes children of us all. Any intellectual difference is destroyed. The wisest know nothing."
- Emerson

Acrobatica
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France

Re: Happy about choosing a new (and male) therapist

Post by Acrobatica » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:49 pm

TheMoon wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:07 am
Just following on from my previous, David's comment about the gynocentric world of therapy strikes me as possibly a microcosm of the opposite state of affairs, where the framework has been developed by women, and don't necessarily mesh that well with a more traditionally masculine point of view. I might suspect nursing to be similar. If there are any male nurses on this forum I would be interested to hear what they think about it too.
I think this is a fascinating point Moon. I have stayed away from this thread because I have strong opinions about this sort of thing.

I have a theory that men are not as flexible in adopting or even perceiving a woman's point of view. Most books, movies, television, most media we consume, are written by men. Even stories primarily about women are almost always written, and directed, produced, etc., by men. Stories written by women are more rare, but, happily, becoming less so lately.

But this means that women who consume media are used to seeing a man's perspective. In fact, we see everything from a man's perspective so much that we sometimes have difficulty understanding our own perspective. Men, however, rarely see stories from a women's perspective - and often stories from a women's perspective are diminished in our culture as "chick flicks," so men actively avoid them. Thus men have a much more difficult time adopting a woman's perspective, simply because our culture does not give them as much experience or practice at it.

This, Ivanhoe, is a result of our patriarchy. Men have more access to positions of authority and power in our culture - and although there are exceptions - this is a given. Just look around. But I believe, a benefit of this, is that women have more flexibility. A detriment is that men have less. I don't believe this is hard-wired, it is a result of our culture.

Patriarchy, while it used to be more embedded in law - women are no longer considered property and women may own their own property (but it really wasn't so very long ago that this changed) - is still embedded in our culture.

When I graduated years ago, I thought we had sexism and remnants of patriarchy licked. I thought that I as a woman had the same opportunities in a career if I just worked hard. But it simply isn't true. Again - just look around. In law, for example, women make up more than half of law graduates (for over 30 years now), but just 35% of lawyers at law firms, and just 20% of partners. Why? I, for one, don't believe that it is because women are less ambitious (I had excellent credentials and put in my share of 80 to 90 hour work weeks for years - even after having children), it is because those in positions of authority think they are and do not offer them the same opportunities. I know this from personal experience and from conversations with many friends and colleagues.

I must say that this LE has also been extremely eye-opening for me in how people treat men and women differently. LO gets so many opportunities that no woman his age would have access to. People defer to LO so easily - even when what he is asking for or what he is saying makes little sense, because he says it confidently and he is male. I think before when I worked closely with men - they were always a little older than me, or had slightly different experience, and so I could rationalize why others deferred to them over me. There is none of that with LO, I have more experience, more knowledge, more education, in every way, and yet people will still defer to him over me. It is galling, but there is no way I can rationalize it as anything other than blatant sexism, on everyone's part (including me).

As for men in professions that are predominately female, I think it is very difficult for men. There is far more societal stigma for a man in a woman's profession (nurse, elementary school teacher), than a woman in a man's profession (lawyer, stockbroker). But, I think men also forget that even there, they get far more opportunities. Men tend to rise quickly in women's professions to the tops of that field, because even women are sexist (again including myself), where women are often kept down. And even in women's professions, the framework is often not developed by women (how is the framework for therapy gynocentric when all of the leading theorists are men, Freud, Jung, Erikson, Piaget, Skinner, etc).

Havb
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Saint-Martin (French part)

Re: Happy about choosing a new (and male) therapist

Post by Havb » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:28 pm

To be fair, Hollywood generally shows a skewed reality for both genders. A story about a man controlled/abused by a woman would be a story about a “pussy” no leading actor would want to play; a story about, say, a cruel transgender lesbian black woman would be rife with racial/gender/sexual orientation polemics, blocking is from seeing and appreciating the whole story there as well.

Ain’t no happiness nowhere, to quote Chris Rock.
“Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.” -Samuel Beckett

There is always more work to be done.

townshend
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Re: Happy about choosing a new (and male) therapist

Post by townshend » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:35 pm

Acrobatica :ymapplause: very well put :ymapplause:
No good has ever come from feeling guilty neither intelligence, policy, nor compassion. The guilty do not pay attention to the object but only to themselves and not even to their own interests, which might make sense, but to their anxieties. -Paul Goodman

TheMoon
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Great Britain

Re: Happy about choosing a new (and male) therapist

Post by TheMoon » Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:37 pm

Acrobatica wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:49 pm
But this means that women who consume media are used to seeing a man's perspective. In fact, we see everything from a man's perspective so much that we sometimes have difficulty understanding our own perspective.
You've made a lot of good points here Acrobatica, and especially the idea that women are in danger of not understanding our own perspective. And I think that links back to the idea that equality, as it plays out in post-feminist society is not such a great deal after all.

I was thinking about an analogy earlier when I was out shopping (traditional feminine pass time which I claim not to enjoy, but nonetheless spend a certain amount of time and money on :ymblushing: ). So it's like this. For many years the men had their own gym. They had weights machines for their muscles and a nice gymnasium that they only used for team games like basketball and five-a-side. Women were not allowed to join. Then there was a rumpus and the government said that women members had to be allowed. So the women joined but they wanted some treadmills for cardio stuff, and they wanted to do gymnastics in the gymnasium. But the gym did not allow these things. Why should it? It had been doing just fine for years without them. But it offered equality of access, so all was well.

So that's where I thought we were this afternoon, but after thinking about your comments Acrobatica, I think that, in addition to this, the new women members of the gym are as likely to be thinking, "I'm not that interested in weights and team games, so I won't bother with this gym any more" or even "if the place got filled up with treadmills and gymnasts, it wouldn't be the same for the men, and we have to consider them, so we won't make a fuss".

Trouble is, you can find another gym, but you can't find another society quite so easy.

I know this is simplistic, but it helps me to think about the issues. In particular, right now, I honestly don't know what my ideal society would look like. It's like trying to imagine what chairs would look like if our knees bent the other way. I just don't know.

TheMoon
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Re: Happy about choosing a new (and male) therapist

Post by TheMoon » Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Ivanhoe wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:36 pm
She thought nursing had built a somewhat High-schoolish structure and culture in which women with narcissistic tendencies seemed to thrive - and ruse to the top.
Not completely sure what a "high-schoolish" culture is, but it doesn't sound very good! But in a way that's not the point. I certainly wouldn't claim that all the works of women are good, and all the works of men are bad. The point is more that the culture created by women is different, and probably one in which men would find it more difficult to thrive.

Your point about "women with narcissistic tendencies" is interesting too. In your own less gynocentric field, how do narcissists fare? I imagine narcissists of both sexes can manipulate their way in pretty much any type of society or culture if they spot an in.

Acrobatica
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:02 pm
France

Re: Happy about choosing a new (and male) therapist

Post by Acrobatica » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:28 pm

TheMoon wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:37 pm
For many years the men had their own gym. They had weights machines for their muscles and a nice gymnasium that they only used for team games like basketball and five-a-side. Women were not allowed to join. Then there was a rumpus and the government said that women members had to be allowed. So the women joined but they wanted some treadmills for cardio stuff, and they wanted to do gymnastics in the gymnasium. But the gym did not allow these things. Why should it? It had been doing just fine for years without them. But it offered equality of access, so all was well.
I love this analogy!

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