reciprocity, abandonement and guilt

A common and understandable desire, can it work?
AnjiTheDestroyer
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Prelude to perfection of the second bind

Post by AnjiTheDestroyer »

_
--Prelude to perfection of the second bind--

okay, i have been trying to work within the three stage recovery process.
i considered myself free of L b/c i believed i was sufficiently well versed at employing the two facets of the first stage work which are the mental and physical.
mentally, meditation(esp. breathing-- maybe i'll post a how-to in the future) and emotional training(ignoring/disentangling) have been pivotal.
physically, persistent exercise of the muscles from the fingers to the diaphrams has shown to be a fortress against repetetive, involuntary thoughts which i believe are nothing more than manifestations of loose energies from down below.
and with this line of reasoning it becomes apparent that suppression alone is unhealthy and therefore the controlled energies have to be, with equal frequency, dismantled thru exercises of the muscles from the obliques(abs) to the psoas etc..(i.e. the lower belly>>leg raise exces are sufficient here).
considering that for the sake of balance one will also have to exercise the legs(tighs to toes) it naturaly follows that the summarized advice here is to keep fit overall :-)

with the above stage understood and hopefully near perfected, the second bind is what remains.

a long recovered alcoholist on a quite, solitary friday evening may, aroused by a random trigger, suddenly get the impulse to have a drink or two. but this first impulse is resisted b/c the many years of emotional training(ignoring) have made him sufficiently strong willed.
but what follows, i.e. the rationalization that it will not hurt to have a glass etc.. with various reasons given as proofs will be the second challenge of the the night.
the problem with non perfection of the second bind is that there is no marked lines between it and the first, and no one person can bring the method of Control to infallible perfection, and so the emotional compulsions will slowly begin to have their forces felt.
at the first stage it is irrationality that is vanquished. but challenges at the second stage attempt to make their way in thru pure reason.
and as long as one's worldview is naturally not perfectly harmonious and solid down to the last atom, there will be ways in.
this is the situation i am in now. my compulsions are under heel, but this dilemma has been plodding at certain incongruencies and gaps in my worldview.
if in a purely theoretical scenario, the alcoholist found(was made certainly aware) that there was not a drink within walking or driving distance he would just give up and do something else. b/c again the drive was not emotions but a rationalization to have an innocent drink just for the sake of an innocent, chill friday night.
if there was *any* emotional compulsion that would have been work for stage one.(if he was weak willed, he would have searched for and drunk pharmaceutical alcohols etc..)
the will has been given a weapon. the problem is that it is not clear on what it wants to do. and even if it's clear on its wants, it can't clarify and accept the real world possibilities.
so while forming and fortifying the worldview to answer to logical impulses is another work, the core objective of this stage could also be described as: To perfectly clarify what will happen with the drug of choice.
and especially in the case of L this becomes more useful b/c even if 'i will have it' is the answer, to go and have it would still be better than sitting and being stuck between the two extreme, practical probabilities.
in a word: the problem is ambiguity of the future. even acquiring the drug(LO) is not a problem... atleast not an LE problem (probably evolves into codep etc.. problems)
thus the logical precedence can be removed for the time being by simply defining the desired/possible future. *and then rehearsing it* ad nauseum if necessary.
this approach has become really, very useful for me.
i am still square in the middle wrt my probability of meeting ex-LO (many circumstantial wires ,not just difficulty of meeting, binding me hands and knees) but what i have observed thru experimentation is that when i rehearse that i will never get to meet her again, or be friends etc.. for various reasons(such as maybe i or she will again become unavailable when this window of opportunity closes)... then no type of triggers seem to move me at all.
and when i switch back into the probability of meeting and being friends, then the platonic designs resuface again w/ the same triggers that were ineffective just above.
the most important thing in this regard is being very sure of the probability and i am able at this time to test both b/c both directions are well formed-- they have great powers of mainfestation.
Ignore.Satisfy.Understand

AnjiTheDestroyer
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Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:14 am

prelude to perfection of the third bind

Post by AnjiTheDestroyer »

_Prelude to perfection of the third bind-

well, this is it. i have been trying to avoid it for so long b/c it had once entered my mind, thanks to Gotama, that philosophizing was a waste of time.
but i am past denial that it is still useful, albeit in a sharp focused manner. my life principles have been unravelling of late and i need to string them up together and make a cohesive whole out of them.
the matter of ex-LO is not love, it is an urge to get involved in her life and i have for so long been prevented from acting in either way b/c my principles have become too disorganized and perhaps somewhat polluted with some irrational beliefs. i need to revise the whole thing, and now is as good a time as any other.
i literally have no other choice. this issue has become interspersed with some sixty percent of my personal beliefs and i need to hammer them into a lean, straight and decisive set of principles.
i don't keep a journal(this explains why i bleed people's ears on a semi-regular basis on here..) b/c i find it too much work, plus since it is so disorganized(it is sorted with dates not threads of ideas) i find it irksome to read though it. so i have done another thing: i have begun a sort of an area on my PC wherein i will cross examine, in detail, every single idea and conflict that has to do with this issue. i have already made much progress b/c the ideas and conflicts were already rattling around my brain. and there is a sense of certainity settling in. and i know that after certainity comes decisive surety. and that heralds the absolute death of irrationality which is the first born son of Confusion.

there is absolutely no reason for me not to raise the sword of reason. i, nor ex-LO will benefit from a continued state of indecision. love is a byproduct for me and i see it dead and rising in little bits and then dying again. i am not hungry for her company, that's not it anymore. it is something that has been bothering me for so long but wearing different faces, females' and males' too, and of all ages. and now it has happened to wear her face. and it only acquired more intensity as a result of our shared possible two way LE history.
it is about time i turned my awareness on it.
Ignore.Satisfy.Understand

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LisaTranscending
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Re: reciprocity, abandonement and guilt

Post by LisaTranscending »

so whatcha gonna do?

AnjiTheDestroyer
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Re: reciprocity, abandonement and guilt

Post by AnjiTheDestroyer »

_i am going to make my world outlook, as much of it as is behind this whole issue, water-tight.
and i am hoping that this will entirely rob even the last, simmering, thoughts regarding her of the drive that is making me restless for action and yet at the same time tied... then decisions and actions, nevermind whichever way, will spontaneously flow into manifestation.
it's the ambiguity that is the disease.
Ignore.Satisfy.Understand

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LisaTranscending
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Re: reciprocity, abandonement and guilt

Post by LisaTranscending »

"...the drive that is making me restless for action and yet at the same time tied." AnjiD.

loved that. I was stuck in that vortex for what seemed an eternity....hey, wait a minute...I still am. :-o

um, yeah...ambiguity....life blood of it. and yet...how delicious eh? the human brain I've recently read is constructed to desire sense pleasures and crave and seek and be all motivated to make things happen, than it is to actually enjoy anything at all. it so happens that motivation to like things and then want them and the go after them....is a survival skill.
and as it turns out, it's the death-knell of the planet as well.

good luck with that water-tight stuff. we don't exactly go after what we want all the time in LE. that story varies with each particular limerent's situation or style......I imagine your air-tight stuff involves some sort of self-disciplinary mastery which requires an earnest dedication to such mindfulness....how to do it, and get committed to it....that's the key, and it flies in the face of our very own natures. but all good things are challenging.

just now getting back to playing with some old musician friends I haven't played with in a couple of years. it's getting me air tight too in ways. but....I'm still lingering in Limerland...at least my imagination was today....Hmmmm...wonder if LO would like to hear me in this concert? that's not ambiguous...I want to be in a relationship with LO.
what's ambiguous....is the fear of that actually happening and all that comes along with relationship. after all the years limerent, I'm not full-on limerent, but I have lingering limerent tendencies....and for the very same person I have had them for all along. as this fellow musician who I played with today (who knows all too well about my obsession since I tortured her about it when I was at the height of it some years ago) said..."Put it to bed, Lisa." yeah...the cappuccino went all over the place. and we both laughed. (well...i sorta laughed) cuz...I do feel the LE like a mist in my head still. (mist....not gravity itself I'm up against, if you know what I mean.) or....to keep to the water metaphors....not the deafening cascading fall of Niagara Falls in my mind every waking moment with no place to hide.

AnjiTheDestroyer
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Re: reciprocity, abandonement and guilt

Post by AnjiTheDestroyer »

_though i could identify with the idea that some may prefer to admire their object of worship from afar-- for fear of soiling it with their contact, i believe-- i don't think this is the same thing as what you're saying. the problem of seeking and finding and yet being unable to enjoy the fruits of one's labor, to me, is the problem of misallignment. a misallignment of what is acquired with the true inner desire of the person. for if the person had acquired the object that most approximates to one's innermost desire then there is no reason not to relish it to a certain extent.

there surely is, if we were to be thorough here, a 'something' that is completely unsatisfiable by anything of this world, but that also means that it does not seek anything of this world. i don't know if that--or its physical manifestation-- is maybe what the scientists have discovered but that knowledge is not really novel... every major philosophy/religion has given it some name or has alluded to it.. the Indian Atman('personal'/inner God) is what i see as the most frank assertion although how it proposes to 'satisfy' this thing's cravings is not unique. simply put: they say that the only way to satisfy it is to enable its self-absorption.... but that is perhaps too deep...or is it??

my water/air-tight notion, i see, Lisa, has been misinterpreted by you. i meant to imply that i am now seeking to consider a great portion of my personal views and forge as a perfect union as possible and it is not, as you said, that i am seeking to perfect self mastery or self satisfaction to a greater extent through mindfulness, meditations, relaxing with hobbies etc... not for now atleast, b/c i feel i have done so much work one these fronts and have laid much ground work for their future proliferation if necessary...

i now seek to examine and, once and for all, make a united, cohesive whole out of my personal views that lie behind my insoluble dilemma. i feel they are the root causes behind every indecision that is and has been plaguing me and i have, to my great frustration, discovered that minor repairs are futile. i adress and deliberate a certain area of dispute and the bothersome issues simply slink out and show up at another area and repeat the cycle. so the standup job from me now has to be to have a helicpter view of the whole problem areas and attempt a holistic approach.--- no sort of specific approach has worked: there simply have appeared too many uncertainities at many areas: the rescue problem, the female question, the life-goals question to name a few, and there is too many roads crossing between all of them... atleast as a result of this LE issue.

but even running with your misinterpretation--a blameless one--, i honestly do not see the tasks of self mastery and the like as a burden to be borne for the sake of a higher good or as contradicting human nature. yes, surely, it is a challenge but nothing isn't; virtually everything has pros and cons and this too has its *immediate*, not anticipated, benefits. but again self control etc.. cannot be an end in itself, it is a means to an end. and the end is harmony. it is a necessary means, it is how everything that is designed to prosper or grow is made to follow a certain prescribed direction so that it does not scatter its (life) force and fizzle out into nothingness. paving a road, building a structure... rearing a child (best example for a living thing) ... all require a certain control/direction coupled with giving them energy. unless the claim is that no direction and restriction is necessary and natural to which i disagree. conscious steering, controlling, manipulating and even resisting are necessary and conducive to great benefits IMO.

gravity is necessary so we don't lose our footing. where the challenge lies is in deciding which gravity to attach to.

thanks for commenting Lisa; as re: your LE: if you believe that his listening to your work, or more, being in a relationship with him is a notion which you fully embrace with no uncertainity... and yet are repulsed from making such designes a reality b/c you find the anticipation of the 'afterwork' of a (customary) relationship not to your preference,... then does this mean that you have some idea of a sort of a relationship dynamic which you could accept?
if so, is the difficulty convincing him of the merits of this idea of a relationship you have in mind?
or is it that you are aware that your idea of a relationship is not well developed enough to be a put into reality??
Ignore.Satisfy.Understand

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LisaTranscending
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Re: reciprocity, abandonement and guilt

Post by LisaTranscending »

my overall reaction after reading what you wrote here just now, was....."no arrival." I see where I mis-read what you meant in that you aren't even anticipating anything actually manifesting or not manifesting, sort of taking yourself completely out of any calculation (helicopter view of it) and trying a new angle...am I getting that right?

so what is the actual root cause of your "insoluble dilemma"? is it some misinterpretation of your LO's behavior? or the very nature of male/female miscommunication? your ego's role in all of it? wanting to have closure or finality at all ....could be the very miscalculation, not being able to sit with uncertainty itself and be comfortable there. humans tend (like a musical scale) towards resolution. I often amused myself growing up playing a scale to the very penultimate pitch, only to have --not just the other musicians in the house groan-- have to get up from wherever they were in the house and go over to the piano, walk over there, and play the final note. (yeah, I was that kind of a kid). we want closure, we want resolution, we want certainty.

in a world....where none of that exists. everything is always changing. so whatever it is we want (or don't want) changes all the time. every day we are confronted (confronted because it takes willpower to resist) with buttons to push, cakes to eat, cigarettes to smoke, alcohol to drink, procrastination to overcome, you name it. every single day. and in the middle of all these pushes and pulls, we daydream endlessly about connection with another human being. as if that's going to stop all the traffic in our mind, and from now on, life is going to be complete.

and then of course, there's the very nature of your LO which is singularly bracing for you personally, and impossible to ignore, even in the face of reason or philosophy. there are some people that we are drawn to, and in a lifetime of meeting people, this magnetic force towards them, is undeniable. perhaps it's sexuality dressed up in the poetic. for once, life won't be all prose, something more, something more profound this time. how can we escape such a promise? how can we escape such a potentially powerful friendship or connection if we aren't enjoying one at this very moment?

is it really, AnjiD, all delusion?

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LisaTranscending
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Re: reciprocity, abandonement and guilt

Post by LisaTranscending »

or is it that you are aware that your idea of a relationship is not well developed enough to be a put into reality?? @anjiD

yes...and of course I'm not sure how realistic my dreams and hopes in this regard actually are.

in my mind, it's something like perfection. everything that happens in the mind is always so different than what actually happens. and still.....i can't help but hope for something that takes me out of the ordinary, and into a realm of bliss where I can feel that sort of feeling in my body and mind when I dream. I just want to be sitting next to someone who feels like that alongside me. and part of me, is absolutely certain this is possible, and another part of me, the skeptic, the killer of limerbeasts.....says, "Get a grip."

Limfriend1
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Re: reciprocity, abandonement and guilt

Post by Limfriend1 »

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Last edited by Limfriend1 on Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

AnjiTheDestroyer
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Re: reciprocity, abandonement and guilt

Post by AnjiTheDestroyer »

_i do identify with what you have replied Lisa; my idea of a relationship dynamics is as difficult to communicate as it is to actually bring into concrete existence.

to be sure, the idea of a platonic friendship is well developed enough and is tried and proven by certain many people... in addition, and curiously enough too, i know that ex-LO herself has had such a long standing and very close friendship with someone who may or may not have been a former BF... so that is not *the* problem. the problem is that i have pumped the core idea, which may have been difficult enough to realize by itself owing to the BS b/n us, with steroids and have placed great expectations on it. it is not a fantasy of mine and even if it has come to be so through time it is only as a petty after effect of a sober and well considered origninal plan: i don't want to be laughing our assess off and goofing around like hetro-sexual buddies... i want to swallow/incorporate that fun part into a much greater whole, a very serious, mission oriented friendship. and this is where the difficulty/complexity rests.

i ask: do i really value this fantasy... or rather:dream? do i? and if so, then how much? if very much then what am i willing to do for it? sacrifices to be made, oaths of commitment to be sworn to self... b/c i am not in some candy land where i could just wish stuff into being, or enjoy them with no exertion.... and if not, well then how am i planning to completely extinguish the hope? these are the questions i have to ask myself and which i recommend you do too. dreams do become a reality. all they need is work. but if we don't, can't, put in the work and we feel that they're mere fantasies then we normally have no problem accepting that too. where the trouble emerges is when we stand in the middle... this is the resting place of LE.
Ignore.Satisfy.Understand

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