reciprocity, abandonement and guilt

A common and understandable desire, can it work?
AnjiTheDestroyer
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Re: reciprocity, abandonement and guilt

Post by AnjiTheDestroyer »

__Saturday evening.... doing actual fantasy-work(mentioned somewhere else)...
after removing for a moment *my* somewhat uncompromising intentions/imaginations of serious work together(w/ romance as a background music maybe), when i "adjust" the fantasy to the real possible scenarios(meaning: letting it happen as it would be in reality acc to what i saw in her upto now,) i just imagine nothing but carefree love makings like picnics, romantic dinners and meeting people, going to concerts and stuff.... that seems about what she'd have us do. delightful as long as i'm w/ her but i had to continously write off for the fantasy's sake deep, dark misgivings about losing my firmness, focus etc..
and w/ the direction i'm going-- MORE firmness, focus etc..-- it seems like a bother than anything else.
so, what about the other scenario? the *only* one i'm willing to take, like where we don't meet ppl for weeks, don't indulge in long dinners and may even keep locked in a room for days... that doesn't seem like her cup of tea! hardly fantasy material too.
hmm.... i want so much to say DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED but i'm holding off for a while.
her b-day coming up, i'm now honestly sensing a huge onset of clarity and certainity... this is going to be a pivotal period(wrt LE, and my world view re:conception of platonic friendship with another person).
i'll see if the other scenario works....back to la-la land.
EDIT: was just listening to the interview w/ Ayana's husband (the athlete who shattered the 10k record @ Rio) and it turns out HE was her trainer, not the Federation, and they trained EIGHT hours a day! didn't give a flying fuck what day it was....THAT was food for thought.
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AnjiTheDestroyer
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listening to my own advice

Post by AnjiTheDestroyer »

_been doing that since saturday, did some fantasy-work
and then springing from the results, sunday did goal-work.. after what i like to call "marathon deliberations" sat on "abnormal, nomadic friendship"-- as only middle ground i'm willing to accept. my saying goodbye is inconsequential, did it only to forcibly bring closure but my dillema didn't give a fuck so i wont. her rxn too the same, if she says no it'd be me wiping a sweat from the brow- i don't care... it's my internal struggles that're torturing me re:abandoning w/out giving her a solid chance at serious self growth(reader, i'm sure you've learned to tolerate my big, huge arrogance by this point..) if she rejects it, honestly it's no skin off my back:):) the romance has been dealt with-- i'll add, a long time ago. she is a petite beauty, a sexy, sharp personality... i'm reminded that i love her everytime i see her, but at the same time i love a view, a Bach piece, a physical sensation etc.. *w/ no less intensity*... i also love other women, even celebrities-- Diaz, Elizabeth Mitchell.. what creatures!... so i don't know how to explain it.. it's just my appreciation- not her- i guess?
making contact is no problem, there's ways to make it happen yet again- fake accidentals one of them! - my quick give up the last time proving that i was not properly resolved. the REAL issue is my mind. i need to set it straight. comically i may not even have to make contact, i *could* kill it thru reasoning. **the obj is not her, she is the byproduct of the real obj which is to clarify things in my mind to the point where i feel i could decide W/ OUT infatuation/delusion in my mind.**
yesterday, did some stage-3 work... adressing loooong neglected(but they didn't me) issues re:1)learning sth from the experience to help me, and 2) the concept of "rescuing"(rather accurately assisting) an other... wd have loved to share but its extremely interspersed w/ bud/yog metaphysics-- maybe selected points if possible.
doesn't mean resolutions here are conclusive, they will be refined/modified thru the coming days and week but they set a foundation.
the essentials are: 1) i have killed the argument that i'll learn from the exp'ce(first partnership w/ girl since year:epiphany) as a waste of time(b/c i already remember the past ones- though not too very serious-, no need to obsessively repeat again and again). so it will now stop being an internal argument advocating for friendship. and re2: that it is actually very okay to help another person as long as i am not emotionally, physically etc.. too invested. and that is the nature of the friendship i'm accepting as midle ground.
thus sufficiently calm and remembering that the romantic colorings of my intents are just silly, late embellishments of the pure, deep desire to help, i see the situation as a fellow aspirant(i count vitality, discriminative ability etc.. coupled w/ dissatisfaction w/ status quo as aspiration looking for inspiration) looking for assistance/advice, and i am perfectly w/ in the rules to assist to the best of my abilities as long as it doesn't affect my practice.
helps to have clarified this but it doesn't break the dealock. maybe look @ another place??
i'm very happy to put these things inorder in a long time b/c i was too unsettled and lazy to really hammer out the details let's just say since the re-eruption of this pseudo-limerence a year and some change ago. and my being unclear on those issues has been a big pain in the arse b/c they kept creating continous internal conflicts, and not just re: LE, LO#5 etc... afterall what i settled re: learning from exp'ce and rescuing/assisting was NOT just re: LE & LO#5 but a whole range of other issues(such as for eg.(w/ assumption that struggle=experiences is a great source of lesson) do i actively seek out challenges? or do i travel my own way and take chalenges as they come etc... so, WAY bigger that that..
jalandhar thanked for getting me into calm, unperturbed zones, and a long term ab-work regimen for imparting sharpness/focus in thoughts.... as odd as this sounds, what makes these possible was sth unconnected to mind work, it was body-work yet again, b/c i knew that i always had the mental-power, what is needed is initiative, freshness, stamina, focus etc...
they were absolutely bang on: mens sana in corpore sano.
on news re: ex-LO#5, i learnd that she has broken up w/ latest BF#2. it happened after the two back to back disclosure messages- but can't ascertain if it was before or after the third contact attempt. either way it sounds a bit important- hope i'm not dissecting too much- b/c she had been in a r/ship w/ BF#1 for 4+ yrs and this short r/nship seems odd and also more importantly i've learned to assume that there is almost always +1 intentions w/ her moves. she does not step into a r/nship w/ out certainity and does not step out w/ out equal certainity. and w/ that rationale i could take that as somehow connected w/ me... as a show of goodwill maybe even... two things: i would love nothing other than to stop w/ this BS and be sure of everything but it's impossible under the circumstances and i have to settle for conjecturing analysis. i have to b/c i have taken responsibility to be involved w/ her world since the first time i disclosed. i have assumed the responsibility to be attuned to her subteleties. and 2) the only way she expresses her subteleties is thru these roundabout ways. and i *know* she does.
..
i will take this as input into the big debate.
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AnjiTheDestroyer
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Re: reciprocity, abandonement and guilt

Post by AnjiTheDestroyer »

_When i change my world outlook, how i think about everything on a daily basis,(to an old one i had) i see the dillema-- along w/ the usual side thoughts not to do w/ LE, LO etc.. like my chronic irritation at what i consider to be the decadence of the world, but which obviously contribute very much to this minor internal annoyance>>dillema re: ex-LO-- being *invariably* outflanked, being outmoded(made irrelevant?)...
there has to be a way to make a generalization out of this.
took up this for a project totally unrelated to our subject matter, again, but it gives strikingly effective results not unlike the period of recovery years ago. i'll see if i can find the principle behind maybe to recommend it to others.
thought about retiring after last post but i thought "why??"... no benefit to be gained therefrom. i have plenty of time at the moment, and i still don't consider myself as having uprooted-- or ascertained the way to uprooting-- the LE problem, not as long as this personal-uncertainity persists. so i'll be here for a while.

EDIT: Reciprocity
just have to add, i'll have to say the other issue that really tortures me is that when i think about her no matter what the subject--whether about the rescue or the romance-- what really makes me sick is that i surmise that she is not yet past me and i am somehow hurting her when/if i decide to "ditch" her and leave her to her own designs, or romantically "forget about everything" and leave her to have her choice of BFs #3 to eventually her husband; especially since, thanks to the recent new info:her breakup which i unsurprisingly managed to link to myself...(somehow feels familiar where she makes sudden bold moves to accomodate me and i react very slowly owing to my careful deliberative style and she ends up being frustrated and moving on(trying to), but our issue not being really exhausted... and the whole comedy of errors and misunderstandings repeats itself_ but i want to put a definitve end to this now.)
i also believe it somehow IRRESPONSIBLE-- not cold hearted, i could live w/ that-- to do those things b/c it was me that reignited the whole issue when i could have just not disclosed etc.. and let the whole thing die.(but i had sufficient reasons for doing that.) so i took it as a serious duty, i had to, from the day when i logged in and typed those words, and the rest.

this^ new(old) outlook mentioned in original post deals an effective blow to this specific belief, but *suuuch* cold heartedness!!

what a nice choice of title for this thread, summarizes my whole issue perfectly.
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LisaTranscending
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Re: reciprocity, abandonement and guilt

Post by LisaTranscending »

I'm reading it in increments! lol ATD...but
spent today afternoon with a dude friend conversing about this and that and all i could wish for, all i could crave for in the depths of my gut is 'oh, how i wish he was somehow wiped from from this bar and subsituted by dear LO.'

yep. one of the worst aspects of it for me was this. erase the moment you are in...and erase all the people in it...just for LO. Hate that.

AnjiTheDestroyer
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Re: reciprocity, abandonement and guilt

Post by AnjiTheDestroyer »

_yet another of the parallelisms w/ (substance) addiction.
the normal occurences of daily life feel so very depressing, and yet they all could become immediately interesting-- nothing changed-- when in company of the LO... or the drug, to complete the analogy.
and the logical question follows: is it really okay to be so dependent on sth/someone to such an extent? -- i remember heavy bouts of depression when separated from my longest continous LO#2 during summer breaks. and it feels not right to me... enough w/ being the romantic martyr, was what i said, i have hurt for too long.
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AnjiTheDestroyer
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Re: reciprocity, abandonement and guilt

Post by AnjiTheDestroyer »

_ex-LO's b-day is a week away and i feel that if i am to make contact(...perhaps a feigned accidental...) or decide in favour of total discard i must do it before then.
but i need to keep my head about me and not be rushed by circumstances into making rash decisions. afterall, this deadline is an artificial construct of mine and could be altered to conviniency; no absolute dangers to my plan, except perhaps her death or marriage and children all on the morrow of her birthday.
i know that what's behind this irksome, surprisingly well balanced dillema of mine is the temporarily disturbed state of my worldview and i am working day and night to make some semblance of a cohesive, updated outlook out of the old and the new.
i am between an old,*uncompromising* buddhist mentality and a newer yogic one which is more lenient to the idea of comradeship and such other preoccupations which the old buddhist would have chased with a switch in hand. and i *juuust* need to click into place... and not be tortured stuck in no man's land.
the old view dragged me, holding my figurative hand, out of the nether world and i owe it MY LIFE. it wasn't my beloved family, it wasn't my friends or LO or all the pleasures and gods i may encounter in the future. it was words, a noble, *sensible* teaching and it is what brings me up from hell into heaven. and i know thru experience that both are in this world.
it is outright irresponsible to surrender one's principles--one's life-- for the sake of another living thing.
and i am proud of my stiff necked negotiating style. surrender for love's sake is a preoccupation of the Romantics and it's simply b/c they are unaware what that entails. i have been one for a very long time and it has brought me nothing but misery, suffering. not b/c of some childish drama of betrayal or loss but b/c i was, the whole time, neglectful of this temple that is me; this responsibility which i bear. and as a result of my neglect, that asset deteriorated and hence i suffered confusion and weakness>>the nether world.
i surrender my love to the best instructions from the great, compassionate men who passed on their wisdom only so that i may be raised from this dirt. thanks to them, there are standards i hold to measure my decisions in life by and that is how i honor those men, myself.
and when i honor myself, hold my assets in respect, cultivate them through protection and right governance, i become elevated to a higher level of existence all in this world, and when i am raised in brilliance... only then will i be able to truly love another person more powerfully, give more--b/c i have still more-- and surrender b/c i know i am safe and sound...
if i do all those romantic things while i am weak and confused then it is simply b/c i am selfish and i will more often than not harm the other also.
if i commit, i commit till kingdom come. i will stand by her no matter what, with an oath of bitter struggle to the bone and tendons. but before i step in i make a million analyses and preparations. and in this instance i feel i need to stand on a firm weltanshauung once again to proceed w/ either option.
some things are a given on either of the two paths: no romance centered life etc.. but the old differs from the new in advocating for a complete eradication of her in thoughts let alone actual presence but the second assures me that i could keep my growth as long as i don't become too passionately involved in the mundane world of fakeries and frivolities. do the two somehow fuse? or am i asking the impractical?
it doesn't matter if i decided to do it and went upto her and she rejected me outright to my face. that doesn't ruffle my feathers. i wont grieve from her loss. what i want is to forge this greater fusion and if the small incidence of it allowing for a (*growth oriented*) partnership w/ a (fe-)male happens, then it would simply mean i will be ready in the future if some intelligent, serious man/woman crosses my path looking for their own salvation.
i feel i must simply make this count. but,
but why this fixation on her? and why not conduct this thought experiment in the vacuum of my mind?--b/c i must confess afterall, as i always do, that this dillema is a microscopic portion of my concerns, and will in all likelihood be an easy subject in some months or a years from now..-- why her specifically? b/c she and i have a past. b/c regardless of my somewhat nihilist beliefs i know there is something here, that just as i know that my family means something, that my being born in this country, my being a human at this time of the millenium all mean something... she sharing a class with me and then being with me all through this great convulsion in my life and her expressing her love, passing through her own convulsions, moving on and out from me only for us to collide into eachother again and again, and me being unable to forget her as a person of wit and noble qualities all mean something. and in seeking to make contact i want to see what that has been implying...
hmmmmm.......web of thoughts...
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AnjiTheDestroyer
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Re: reciprocity, abandonement and guilt

Post by AnjiTheDestroyer »

_listening to:
Audioslave's_ "I Am The Highway"
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AnjiTheDestroyer
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Re: reciprocity, abandonement and guilt

Post by AnjiTheDestroyer »

_time alone is such a privillage; atleast for me it is. time and plenty of space is needed to wallow in confusion, bitch about it etc., and very slowly make some form out of that mess. time and space...
i have had pLenty of time and space this summer that is about to end and i am grateful for that. there is nothing i fear like confusion. and periods like this recharge me to wallow, bitch and finally--and always inevitably-- make a tough, beautiful structure out of that mess which i know will be work to guard and support me for future, busier, more hectic times.. and i perform in top fashion as a result of that.
there is no yang without the low, deep yin.
there is no capricorn without the cancer... there just isn't.
i've been further trying to give practical form to my issue here and i've yet again managed to make some workable form out of it.
for the record her rxn(rejection or acceptance of my propositions) is totally inconsequential to me. why? simply b/c my internal psyche does not give a crap.. all that matters to me is that i make the effort. though i have tried to force/decieve it by making a lame effort at actual contact and then quickly giving up, i know deep inside that nothing has been resolved. i need to make an actual effort. and i know i gain real peace when she reacts *conclusively* positively or negatively. i tried to take it as an obvious sign of negation when she reacted by silence but i should have known better.
it is not romantic closure that i seek, atleast not for me. i am absolutely sure of that. i see a (comparatively) very little and frighteningly fragile promise of happiness from being united with her--that is simply my world view. rather, i seek basicaly two closures and they are: one) romantic closure for her sake, and
two) platonic closure for my sake.
explained, 1 means i believe, regardless of possible actual reality, that she may either still love me(esp. thanks to me sending those infernal P. messages after all these years) or at the very least is in a state of sublimated unfulfilled affection, i.e. the "the one that got away" type of feeling.
i cant lie that i also have that feeling but why i draw a sure, solid line in my case is, in addition to the above reason i've given(fragility etc..) which is a relatively recent(but strong) belief system, in recalling the history of my LEs since childood thru puberty.
i have loved girls with incredible intensity all these years, i have craved, cried and mourned when we finally separated but i have never sustained those feelings for any longer than a year afterwards... i always move on.
even in her case i *have* moved on. but i was drawn back for these two reasons: (what i sensed to be) her untiring, heart scratching reciprocation, and my perception of her as a female variation
of me; the old me that was quickwitted and healthy but who only needed a firm belief, thought, conduct system to feel finally secure and channel all his energies towards sth he believes is truly worthy of his time and life(so he's not plagued by that feeling of being 'lazy').
reason 2, as partially explained above is that i feel that i can be of use in this regard.
again, it doesn't matter if i was off with both presumptions for making contact. what i need is that actual acceptance/rejection whether thru her own words or my actual observation or my decisive failure after a sincere effort.
starting w/ this foundation i tried to further clarify and and crystallize my fantasies, intentions etc.. into what i want in real life, say if i had made contact next week. and this served to, at the same time, strengethen some intentions and test their practicality, and if practical, to devise *actual* ways on how to go about doing them. and two, to peel of impractical fantastic thoughts that cloud my reality.(they don't bother me as much, b/c this is stage two work after sufficient practice in stage one which lets me work in relative sobriety, but they are unhelpful b/c they cloud my judgement when setting detailed plans on how to move on in the practical world.)
i had earlier named what i wanted from our friendship as an "abnormal, nomadic friendship" but as i progressed these past few days i found that that conclusion was too broad for guiding execution, and maybe too narrow in the sense that it is rather too focused on the immediate future(appx 1 yr) where i expect to be busy and may need plenty of time/space. but i may be more accessible in the long term if all turns out for the good and i manage to attain a more stable state of living.(however it is still valid that i will ALWAYS need freedom whatever the external situation, even if not in an excessively "nomadic" manner).
hence, working to give more texture to my intention i managed to formulate a stance for a relationship dynamic which i think will work out best to both of our benefits.
i decided that there were to be two facets to this r/nship which are going to be acknowledged consciously or not. and these are the platonic aspect and the (*subtly*) romantic aspect.
expressed in actual reality this means that on a typical day, or week etc.. when we can be together we will spend a measurable amount of time reading, discussing, practicing, exchanging etc.. and a measurable amount of time relaxing and spending time together in a more light mooded fashion.
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AnjiTheDestroyer
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Re: reciprocity, abandonement and guilt

Post by AnjiTheDestroyer »

_what this has granted
me is a practical framework for my mind to work within under scenario:make contact.
this means that whenever i am inclined, my mind automatically becomes engaged not in abstract but actual steps on how to progress whether is is in how to communicate, what approaches to take and other such things.
also within the 'romantic' sphere not anymore laxly drifting into fantasies of profuse expressions of affection and such, i come to realize that there must be set boundaries if things are not to escalate, and degenerate into unproductive states. there is only a dim line between holding hands and hugging, between hugging and kissing and kissing and having sex. i have to further clarify these things on where to set lines in my conduct.
going out to coffee houses, going to the cinema or concert or just listening to albums is perfectly fulfilling for the second of the two missions in my opinion but i also have to consider the possibility that she may not be fulfilled w/ just that.
i have to sculpt myself--principles-- and draw definite lines as to what i accept and refuse in our r/nship no matter what the threats/consequences and these more innocent activities are in my eyes more than enough to bring delight but there are always the other's demands.
and it may be that she'll accept only my platonic friendship and will seek an other for her romantic needs (either b/c she totally does not love me but appreciates my philosophical input nonetheless or is plain not satisfied with my subtle romantic proposition) and i'll have to consider what i'm to do with that ...this is why i consider this above progress as somewhat of a germ for future considerations as it becomes colored by various scenarios and considerations. but it is of extreme importance to perfectly define the essence of the matter so that there will be a central reference point and also an immovable anchor(of terms to be accepted or rejected) to which all the outside maneuvers(deliberate/spontaneous) will naturally refer.
---
i am honestly baffled. i have never in my entire life thought so deeply about another person concerning friendship etc.. i make (fe/male) friends very quickly, and don't bother about the outcomes leaving it all to the natural flow of things. but a year!? this leads me surmise maybe it's b/c i know that i can't be careless with this one--b/c hearts will be hurt--, or also maybe b/c there is the reason-clouding LE involved?? or perhaps the cause is that i have not adressed the issue of a grown up, serious friendship especially with a woman before, and given my reserves and complications in this regard added to my recent complete shakeup of my views meant that i needed more time adjust and then look forward. either way, this work will be the formulating of my clauses for my policy re: a friendship (with a woman). i don't expect another complete shakeup in the near future, and this work tested by the fire of my affection for this magnificient girl will most probably be able to withstand future variations. so the fact of the matter is that i have to set things straight in my mind.
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AnjiTheDestroyer
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Re: reciprocity, abandonement and guilt

Post by AnjiTheDestroyer »

_I am onto something.

note to self: check if this works by finally testing self w/ 'those' songs and ex-LO#5's pics.
obj: to not have the bothering platonic thoughts.(and the secondary, derived romantic thoughts).

edit: the decisive behind is what has been the seed concern of my worldview, namely, the working principle between my personal energy, and the world around me.
how much am i supposed to assert my indefatigable energy and what proportion do i leave out for the world/karma/God to do as they please?
when i am pushing fully, i overwhelm and stifle people, i sometimes shock them and make them uncomfortable too. and also i hurt myself b/c i expend much energy which makes me sad when i see it come to little/no fruition. and also when this attitude is accumulated for extended periods of time i know that what follows is a sort of controlist mentality b/c my subconscious starts to push for greater initiative... forgetting that as a human one can never impact and control the whole world.
i can't embrace passivity b/c there are some things that require intervention... and coming to this specific issue: re a growth focused partnership w/ a human(eg. ex-LO) ... i have managed to conclude from experience that the other person's energy is also a great factor.. i.e. they will also make things happen to assist in jumping over the hurdles.
finally coming to the specific ex-LO#5 situation, even if i started w/ the assumptions that both my energy and hers are at peak levels--we are both willing, ready, and even trying-- it seems the third factor is still against it.
we simply are not culminating it. ours has been an interesting history of misunderstandings. we got/get along very well, the conversations flow well, our temperaments are very surprisingly similar and we have both known it and it is this knowledge that is keeping us tied to eachother for so long even with little, scanty contact.
i feel, and i am sure she too does, that any sort of relationship has a great potential of working. that even if we were a romantic couple, we would still as well be great, close friends. both our energies are one of the most compatible i have seen to date. ex-LO#3 was maybe close but she lacked the seriousness that seems to be summoned at will that this last one has-- she CAN make her mind work!
but the third factor has always been a striking disruptor since day one.. and we have been painfully aware of it b/c it was as great, if not greater, than the two factors.
when she's ready i am not b/c i am fighting w/ myself. when i am she is not b/c she is taken. when we're both ready our lines of communication somehow breakdown... she's in another city for months/years(eg. internship semester, & also after her graduation), or i can't find her in person like this time.
she gives out embarrasingly glaring signs and i haven't checked her FB wall for months and when i finally do after six months, i see her friends on the comments section had been urging her to move on as the 'city girl' she is and she has listened to the advices. she makes bold concessions for me out of nowhere and i yet again i don't notice anything until it's too late... that is not counting the times when i did notice and yet turned a deaf ear b/c 'i was not ready'.
there is a disturbing energy between us that is obviously very excellent at it's job. and even despite my latest, most dedicated effort, i see that it is still very hard to defeat this entity. and i have called this nothing other than the third factor of Karma/God/The random world.
i am not so much scared of my energy b/c i've gotten good at controlling it, not her's b/c even w/ an allowance for error in my assumption, she is still a perfect specimen.
i have managed to form an open mind to contacting her this summer-- i am past my doubts-- but still i feel tied. like i have to make extraordinary effort...
i have her number but calling her is out of the question. the only option at this point is to meet her face to face, and i can't even arrange that with her so i have to fake it--which is totally against my nature-- and to make this happen, i have to find out where she's going to be and all that tiresome buisness. i guess the end, which i give great respect to, justifies the means but this makes me want to answer the seed question of above: how much effort do i make? what about what the universe has in mind?
maybe we were not meant to be together--atleast at this time.
tragedy is a genre that is underrated at this decadent time.
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