Finally feeling like Im going through Adolescence

Discussion about the way back.
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bhicks
Posts: 378
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Re: Finally feeling like Im going through Adolescence

Post by bhicks » Fri May 19, 2017 9:02 pm

Hi,
Have another update, related to previous posts. First off, want to clear a misunderstanding I may have had with LisaT' and "unjustified feelings". Right now, I feel very emotionally sensitive and projecting a lot, due to some recent work I have done. Its like stuff deep within me has been brought up into the light. It feels like regression a bit, but I know it is not in terms of my recovery. I do feel like I am back coming from a younger place. So yeah, it reminds me a bit of my earlier stages of LE. So I get what LisaT is saying. When I experience emotional responses due to my projections, they are "unjustified". Being aware of my projections and not reacting to them, but also unconditionally accepting my emotions since they are important to experience for integration (which Presence Process and other mindfulness techniques have helped with). Part of my experience with LE, was separating legit feelings from feelings from projection/LE.

I saw my shamanic teacher for the first time in 3 years as a client earlier this week. It was an incredibly powerful session. Its like the process of joy/relief and release, followed by deep shuddering of the body the day I found out about my LO officially being in a relationship was like prep work for this appointment, that was already booked. A deep part of me re-integrated, that I originally lost at a pre-verbal age, that contained trust and self confidence. That deep shuddering came back much stronger this time, and went on for 20 minutes, until it was expended. This can happen when a dissociated part due to trauma comes back when it feels safe to do so, to allow all its processing to continue. It was a beautiful experience. My body was buzzing and it was purgative as well, feel more whole too, but I do feel emotionally younger too, as I reintegrate. So showing my(new)self a lot of self-love.

This has allowed me to feel and understand even more just how much I unconsciously still created this not letting go and dependency on trying to rescue women and get validation from them. My life stance was geared towards a lack of self trust, and so lack of confidence and autonomy, since my self confidence and trust was sucked out of me at a very early age. My not being able to 'let go' of my mother (which my mother unconsciously promoted), helped form my creation of my LO. My basis of self worth, self love and self trust at a young age was predicated by my mother, which I projected onto my LO. Thats the essence of it all, LO is our creation, and so its our power we unconsciously give away, until we are aware and heal.

As JD and I talked about in this thread, the emotional incest and attention that can occur, then the (perceived) abandonment, which alternates, can create a not healthy attachment style of trauma-bonding for the child. Which for me, no doubt got re-enacted with my LO. Perhaps finally seeing my LO with someone else, even though I felt honest relief for myself, was able to stir up that lost part of me that felt abandoned way back then, perhaps when my mom energetic pulled away from me to focus on my dad, after relying on me, the baby/young child, to soothe her emotional dis-regulation. Again, not blaming my mother here. She has a big heart, and did the best she could, its just the energetics that can get passed on through generations if we are unconscious.
Last edited by bhicks on Fri May 19, 2017 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JellyBean
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Re: Finally feeling like Im going through Adolescence

Post by JellyBean » Fri May 19, 2017 9:13 pm

"Borderlines are interpersonal tornadoes. Some men are even romantically drawn—at least for a while—to the drama such women create around them and the helplessness they often display."
https://www.psychologytoday.com/article ... eens-chaos

...and since you've identified your need to rescue, no wonder she likes to play games.

JellyBean
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Re: Finally feeling like Im going through Adolescence

Post by JellyBean » Fri May 19, 2017 9:15 pm

Great insight bhicks. Now to work through what has come to your attention regarding self :ymhug:

bhicks
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Re: Finally feeling like Im going through Adolescence

Post by bhicks » Fri May 19, 2017 9:39 pm

Thank you Limerentfriend! I had understood this and even felt it before, but finally understood and felt the 'big picture', and making the connections now with a lot of my more subtle behaviors.
This part of me has a lot of positive energy, assertiveness, but also some anger to express. Someone I met in Mexico, on the shamanic path, mentioned how he would let lose on a kickboxing bag for 20 minutes to 1/2 hour every morning before his meditations. I feel I need some private 'fight club' sessions as well for now.

My T does not like to use labels, but she expects my Mother, and my LO as both being great candidates for BPD. I think this is a fair assessment. She also said that I was too, but more on the milder spectrum. Plus recovery/integration work and awareness has shifted this.

I have committed to not playing games with my LO still, and she has used everything this week to get me to bite. It is not always easy, but I feel better for not doing it, and getting easier as I go. Its that feeling the need to rescue when she had that abandoned look that got me last time. She usually pulls that after the sexual/high heels/skirt stuff does not work, which it rarely did. The sexual stuff seems to be interlaced with anger/rage/control/power and other emotions, like I mentioned, that that just always seemed weird to me when she did that. Will check that article out, thanks.

:ymhug:

JohnDeux
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Re: Finally feeling like Im going through Adolescence

Post by JohnDeux » Fri May 19, 2017 9:58 pm

bhicks wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 9:02 pm
Perhaps finally seeing my LO with someone else, even though I felt honest relief for myself, was able to stir up that lost part of me that felt abandoned way back then, perhaps when my mom energetic pulled away from me to focus on my dad, after relying on me, the baby/young child, to soothe her emotional dis-regulation.
With LO pretty much out of the way, yet still as noted recently a sporadic and unpredictable source of triggering, I'm left resolving as well the FOO dynamic you alluded to in the quoted material in current day relational interactions vis-a-vis SO. She would probably as well qualify for having some BPD aspects (my familiarity with which allowed me to stay bonded to her in the early days instead of running for the bomb shelter), but tempered by some otherwise rational and well-grounded perspectives that have helped within the marriage over the decades. It is this latter side that is likely wanting for a partner that was not mired in that dynamic that you described....wanting more a partner to work through conflicts "in real time" instead of me coming into the discussion from the perspective of a preoccupied past.

But kudos for the continued progress, bhicks, in making the connections and reaching for those healthier plateaus on which to gain some rest before advancing yet further. And just to add to the BPD description, references, and perspectives for additional contemplation, a link provided earlier that may be of use: http://pairadocks.blogspot.com/2017/03/

bhicks
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Re: Finally feeling like Im going through Adolescence

Post by bhicks » Fri May 19, 2017 10:18 pm

Cheers JD!
This pretty much sums it up:

Many people with BPD were raised by mothers who did know how to regulate their *own* emotions, and could not show their children how to self-soothe, or worse, were the actual sources of their children's relentless fear. These borderlines cannot shake their belief that they are still going to be victimized by those to whom they must attach because it is equally terrifying to them to be alone. They are trapped by a classic double-bind in Erik Erikson's "trust" and "autonomy" stages of psychosocial development in emotional infancy or toddlerhood, and It Doesn't Feel Good.

It is utterly imperative to them that they not find themselves at the bottom of the Karpman Drama Triangle. Which, of course, means that someone else will have to occupy that corner so that the borderline can experience themselves as competent, powerful and secure. Righteous anger sometimes ensues.

I have thus far encountered over 200 people with BPD. All of them display the traits of complex post-traumatic stress disorder. For them, some components of their BPD (not all of them, by any means) represent the best coping and defense mechanisms they can come up with to defend them against threat in a hostile and/or uncaring world. For the BPD who went severely "petulant" and "impulsive" at their home base, as opposed to "self-destructive" or "discouraged," others who are codependent make perfect victims upon whom to vomit their understandable frustration and rage.


In the other article it mentioned also a genetic relationship. Shamanically, stuff that does not get resolved at higher levels, will end up in the body eventually. Epigenetics is a fascinating topic: http://www.sciencealert.com/scientists- ... enerations

JellyBean
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Re: Finally feeling like Im going through Adolescence

Post by JellyBean » Fri May 19, 2017 10:37 pm

bhicks wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 9:39 pm
My T does not like to use labels, but she expects my Mother, and my LO as both being great candidates for BPD. I think this is a fair assessment. She also said that I was too, but more on the milder spectrum. Plus recovery/integration work and awareness has shifted this.

I have committed to not playing games with my LO still, and she has used everything this week to get me to bite. It is not always easy, but I feel better for not doing it, and getting easier as I go. Its that feeling the need to rescue when she had that abandoned look that got me last time. She usually pulls that after the sexual/high heels/skirt stuff does not work, which it rarely did. The sexual stuff seems to be interlaced with anger/rage/control/power and other emotions, like I mentioned, that that just always seemed weird to me when she did that. Will check that article out, thanks.

:ymhug:
Wow there is so much here! The first paragraph reminds me of a saying that David has mentioned several times "if you spot it, you got it"... which I agree with and it sounds your T does too.

It also sounds like you are aware of this and fighting to control it, which is huge in terms of progress. When we see why we do what we do and the connection, we can cut the ties that bind us and not just to LO. That takes work and courage which you are demonstrating.

As for her using her sexual prowess, that borders on sexual harassment in a very narcissitic way... "look at me, validate me, feed me, nourish my soul, fill all my sexual desires, etc, etc..." we want what we want, really quite selfish when you break it down. Good to read "Plus recovery/integration work and awareness has shifted this". Well and truly on the way to shadow-boxing... I mean kickboxing :)

JohnDeux
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Re: Finally feeling like Im going through Adolescence

Post by JohnDeux » Fri May 19, 2017 11:45 pm

Re: Epigenetics and psychospiritual recovery.

Yeah, with the exception of some of the newer technologies which I hope to never be around to see come to fruition, standard genetic inheritance of a debilitating factor is something that often has to be managed through medication, other medical procedures, or just lived with. One might be able to modulate the effects of the genes through diet and behaviors, but that gene(s) and its effects will still be present. By contrast, you could feasibly have 'clones' (identical genomes) of individuals, who nevertheless by virtue of their different past experiences....and even the experiences of their recent ancestors....possess different "tweaks" of their genomes that lead them to be expressed....'manifest'....differently from each other. If you imagine walking with a friend at night and they hear a sound that causes instant adrenaline rush in the friend, but not in you, this is simple induction of a physiological response....an hour later, you might be once again at equal physiological states between the two of you. But experience repeated stress and/or trauma, especially potent when in those early 'sensitive periods', and the heightened reactivity creates a feedback signal to turn on your stress functions....and the genes underlying them.....in a more sustained, hyperaroused state. One way the system does this is by chemically modifying the genes that it wants to keep in the hyperaroused state. So for all practical purposes, the genomes of different 'clones' look identical....but the 'expression' of them is different due to past experience which has temporarily 'locked-in' hyper-aroused gene activity in one that is absent from the other. This is how it differs from the adrenaline example above...with epigenetic modification, the hyper-arousal does not go back down to base level just because the danger is gone.

And this is just the bio-physiological end of things that ends up interacting with psychological 'scripts' (e.g., parent/LO/SO similar behavior patterns that trigger concordant response patterns within us) and 'spirit'(?) in the induction of "mood". But all a good reminder for why our desired 'reversal of fortune' is not so easily and readily obtained. You are trying, over many months, possibly years, to convince your mind/body/spirit to come down from the hyper-aroused state....that it's "okay now". It's a wise mind/body/spirit that proceeds with caution.

bhicks
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Re: Finally feeling like Im going through Adolescence

Post by bhicks » Sat May 20, 2017 5:47 pm

Thank you JD & L-F.

I am not in the least bit jealous of my LO, or thinking about her, so its like this recently was letting go of the guilt like I should care, if that makes sense. Its like facing my own lingering lack of confidence and trust that still wanted expression as requiring a significant female, or someone else to still look after me. This is also helping me open up more to my SO, and to have proper healthy boundaries with her of course. Lately focusing on a broader purpose and self care has really helped with this as well. Some habits of self-sabotage I have seen more clearly too this week, like how I would push people away and test them, people that invariably I know can offer me something new and can challenge me in new ways. Again related to letting go and trusting (self love). My SO could well be one of them too come to think of it.

@L_Z: "if you spot it, you got it" Yes, indeed. No doubt, we both bring out that wounded and quite frankly bratty and needy young child in each other, which the drama feeds, since it keeps the needy, untrusty child as the center of the attention. I can see clearly how participating in this drama is giving my power away, in order to leech on someone elses. Its like my LO and I are/were both giving our power to each other, since we are/were too scared/untrusting to own our own! So its denial based as well. My T also mentions, how things go in cycles, that we will go back to revisit things again every so often to integrate some more. And yes, my LO's behavior is sexual harassment. Come to think of it,my whole workplace has a lot of dysfunction in it, that I am much more aware of now.

@JD: Yes, it is fascinating stuff, thanks for breaking that down. There is a lot I would like to relate to this in terms of the interface or continuum between 'body'/'soul'/'spirit', that I picked up on recently, but that should go into another thread.

'It's a wise mind/body/spirit that proceeds with caution' And I see more and more its about when the time is right. Like my teacher told me, the time was right for that dissociated piece to come back. When we are rushing or pushing things, that is the ego. As mentioned, this piece has some trauma associated with it, but it is also about standing up tall and smiling, it is joyful.

bhicks
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:24 am

Re: Finally feeling like Im going through Adolescence

Post by bhicks » Sun May 28, 2017 8:47 pm

Hi,
Its a gorgeous holiday weekend here, and hope everyone else here is having a relaxing time with loved ones as well.

Wow, really feel just like I did before getting involved with the games and 'self-betrayal'' with my LO a couple of months ago. Feel more whole and centered again, and back at a more 'realistic' and neutral place with my LO. The piece of me that I have been integrating is full of life, assertive, trustworthy, adventurous,'boundaried', sensitive, intuitive and does not like games, so I have been even more aware when I have attempted to people please, so didnt. But also part of this integration has been experiencing a rawness in my heart and re-trusting that it is OK to feel how I feel. This rawness has dissipated a lot, but I have had to go through a week of "undenying" just unconditionally being with how I felt, and to trust that everything will be OK. Showing up for myself, instead of hiding. So a few times at work, I just unconditionally was with my feelings and my state of being, and didnt allow my ego to try and cover it in front of people, no games. This allowed the feelings/energy to move, and finally around Friday just have been feeling amazing!

really understand how all my addictions,distractions and games have been to cover up part of me, feelings etc... that I was unable to allow myself to 'undeny'. My denying of myself then causes projections onto others to rationalize why I cannot feel the way I do, stories and drama. The realm of judgement. So these projections have been reclaimed again, including with my LO. Those energetic hooks have dissipated (again).

For my growth, there are definitely 2 components to this self-love. A disciplined part of showing up for myself (and others), this is the part that chooses to turn the other cheek, even though the unconscious and/or addicted part of me feels like they want to get the quick fix or relief. This is also the part that shows up on time, plans and has purpose, wants to be fully conscious, and shows the psyche they are serious. The part that goes LC or NC if need be. Charlie and some others here, I believe, talk about this part. The other part for me is about vulnerability and complete "undenying" of how I really feel. I noticed that I needed the first part, to get me through the temptations that I was hooked into again, to not play the games, to then allow the other part to come out. Having a shamanic practitioner/teacher work with me was essential too in getting this to happen rapidly. I noticed that David mentioned in another thread, about how a therapist provides an unconditional space away from day to day life. I also see this in a good AA or other 12 step meeting too. This is sacred or ritual space, just like the space my teacher held with me. If we are not serious, or too unconscious/not ready, we will not take that intent into the space. I can see that all those little small decisions day to day, where I turned the other cheek, as insignificant and a pain as they were at the time, were actually very important. So its like these 2 parts, for me, work hand in hand. Too much of one part can be too much control/denial, the other part can be run-away fantasy and reactive emotions if I am unconscious. Its like the first part last week was holding space with the second part to express itself, if that makes sense?

Right now its great to be coming from a free space of lack of emotional charge. My LO I observed neutrally this last week is very obsessed with playing games and trying the get attention from me right now. I do not feel pity, or feel anything either way, no validation either. We had another work party on Friday, and I looked at her and felt nothing. It was a great place to be. The dance my LO and I have played all these years, was basically re-enacting trauma-bonding we both had from childhood. What fueled this I believe, was a desire/attraction that moved both of us, and conflicted with our limited beliefs and brought out that needy or avoidant wounded child in each other. There was a need for clarity in my growth, including being honest with my desires, which served its purpose, but ended in the heart for me. The heart tells me to let go and trust, that my healthy self love will be best for everyone, including my LO, and really it is not about my LO or anyone else. My LO's current unconscious behavior of seduction, petulance and games, including the need to project superiority, seems so immature right now, and definitely not attractive. I also am not taking it personally. I am honestly ready for NC now, and completely moving on, which for me seems obviously related to my own integration of much unconscious behavior. So part of my self-love now, is to continue setting healthy boundaries with her, and if I am ever triggered due to having a bad day, to just be myself and be with the feelings, since they are medicine. There is an energy to this radical honesty and self love, that affect others too, in ways the ego does not understand.

Anyways, thanks again for all the support on this site. This has been a very open and honest diary of my struggles and growth as it relates to LE, and being around a very unconscious LO from day to day.

Did want to share something else too, which resonated with me:

The first kind of love we are familiar with is the bio-chemical love, the, ‘Let’s make love.’ The second kind is romantic love, ‘Mary loves John and John loves Mary.’ This second kind of love, the romantic love and the need for love, has a polarity, which is hate and which involves jealousy and possessiveness. This kind of love is based on the fact that you don’t yet know who you are. And that the other person involved allows you to meet your true self by turning you on to the place inside yourself where you are love.

So you say “he and I” or “she and I are in love,” meaning we connect each other to the place in ourselves where we are love. This is needful love, because you need your connection, and if he or she splits, you can’t find the place in you where you are love. So you get frightened that you’re going to lose your connection.

The third quality of love is conscious love, where you have found that place in yourself and you become it. And you ‘are’ a statement of that love. And your every action is not consciously designed to assert that you love everyone, and everyone loves you, because you ‘are’ love.

Then, there is no more need for anyone to love you. All you experience is a feeling of present flow with everyone in the universe. You are in love with the universe. You are not actively loving, but you are ‘in’ love; you exist in the space of conscious love, which is Christ love. That’s what this whole game is about.

- Ram Dass

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